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Igor, all I am saying is mention the source. I am not defending the current stats. You say the source is official, then just go ahead an mention it -- what's the problem??? Dori 00:46, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Dori I did, before you erased it...

http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Albanians&diff=0&oldid=1286838

Regards

Igor

I meant an external link. You didn't memorize the data did you? You must have looked it up somewhere. I could make up a source like that too, but I'd rather not. Dori 00:59, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I suggest you both have a quick read of Wikipedia:NPOV. If one source says 500,000 and another says 150,000, you don't have an edit war where each editor asserts a single figure, you write "one source says 500,000 and another says 150,000", then you both agree that that's a pretty accurate assessment and do some sort of virtual handshake, and then get on with doing more useful things. That's what NPOV is all about. -- Tim Starling 03:44, Aug 19, 2003 (UTC)

I'm fine with that. Dori 12:26, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

P.S., please don't be intimidated: Dori and Igor are clearly the two experts on Albania here, not me. Edit what I've just done mercilessly, just try to write from a neutral point of view. -- Tim Starling

There are two articles about Albanians: "Ethnic Albanian" and "Albanians". This article is about ethnic Albanians inside and outside of Albania. The article Ethnic Albanian seems to suggest that there are ethnic Albanians only outside of Albania. I think this is wrong. The term "Albanians" is ambiguous between citizens of Albania (who may happen to be, e.g., ethnic Greeks) and ethnic Albanians, and this is the reason why "ethnic" is added. My proposal is merging the two articles. Andres 07:24, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

OK, I think I added that page before I knew about this one (when I first discovered wikipedia). Merging the two is not a bad idea, and it might avoid some confusion. --Dori 22:03, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Dori, the census results I am using is from the official Yugoslav census data, I have it all on one CD, I will try and find it on the net in the meantime, you can check any book which mentions the 1981 and 1991 censa, the data are the same all over.

Well finally you mention the magical source. Why are you opposed to citing it in the articles? Dori 22:01, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

PS, the preliminary 2001 Albania census results mention 3,087,159 people in the whole of Albania, that, naturally includes minorities as well, I rounded it off at about 3 million Albanians although depending on the source (CIA world factbook or Bethany) the percentage of ethnic Albanians is anywhere between 92 and 95% Albanian so that means anywhere between 2,830,000 and 2,930,000 ethnic Albanians in Albania although some Greeks would put at an even lower figure... Igor, 22:50, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

So why don't you explaing the reasoning. You can say that this is the estimate from this census based off of the estimated percentage of minorities. As I've said, if we are to use numbers at random, I'd rather use mine. Dori 22:01, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I found a recent Russian encyclopedic data

http://dic.academic.ru/misc/enc1p.nsf/ByID/NT0000102E

citing numbers we don't have in this article. The number of ethnic Albanians is stated to be 115,000 in the United States, 5,000 in Canada and 15,000 in Turkey. The year and the source are not mentioned. Andres 23:25, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I think this article could contain a survey of the ethnological groups of the Albanians. I mean G(h)egs and Tosks, and the "old" emigrants. And if this information is available, about tribes. (Just a desideratum.) Andres 08:17, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Albanians in Greece

This issue seems to be sparking an edit war. I wish to ask the involved editors (User:Theathenae, User:Albanau, and User:Bogdangiusca) to disuss the matter here instead of continually reverting the article. I am protecting the aritcle now while this discussion follows. Bratsche^{talk 5 pillars} 15:50, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Bratsche, for some common sense. I'll be happy to participate if that's alright with you Chronographos 16:27, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I think it's a wonderful idea, Bratsche.--Theathenae 16:36, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Theatheane I wonder why you have put the quotation mark on the Chams and why you only include the Muslim Albanians and leave beside the Cham Christian Albanians. You also say that the Aromanians/Vlach in Albania identifying themself as Greeks, that's crazy.

The Greeks do indeed claim the Aromanians/Vlachs of Albania as Greeks, but I'd like a reference about their self-identification. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 16:56, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Most Arvanitovlachs have moved to Greece since the fall of the Hoxha régime, and have claimed Greek nationality on the basis of their identification with the Greeks. It's more a case of finding a reference for their non-self-identification as Greeks, if you can.--Theathenae 17:09, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I am not famliar with the relevant statistics, but it seems to me that almost one million Albanian citizens now live in Greece. About half of them are illegal aliens and potentially subject to deportation anytime, while the rest have been given "Green Cards" allowing them to live and work in Greece. If these numbers are true, they mean that a staggering one quarter of the population of Albania earn their livelihood in Greece. Theathenae, do you know if the Greek state differentiates between ethnic Greek and ethnic Albanian immigrants? Chronographos 17:21, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Of course it does. There have been hordes of Albanian nationals clamouring to claim Greek citizenship on the basis of not being ethnically Albanian. Of course, these include ethnic Albanians who baptise themselves Northern Epirotes in order to gain favourable treatment in Greece.--Theathenae 17:34, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Bratsche I request you review the article to last change by me since Theatheane is cleary spreading Greek propaganda. Albanau 16:53, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Albanau, your English is not exactly conducive to clarity of meaning. This is no way to conduct a fruitful conversation. Do try to pose one question at a time, taking care that it is phrased clearly and succinctly, so that people may understand what you are saying and are able to respond in a meaningful fashion. Chronographos 17:01, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Hey Bratsche!

Allow me to quote Stephanie Schwander-Sievers, book: Albanian Identities: Myth and History, page 16. ....Southern Albanian Aromanian (for 'Vlach') communities which, with political transition, have won rights as a special 'cultural group'. However, during my fieldwork with them in 1996 I found many who explicitly wished to identify with their Albanian nationality... --Albanau 17:18, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't know who Ms. Sievers is, but I believe Theathenae referred to people who moved to Greece and requested Greek passports after 1996. Chronographos 17:21, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Albanian nationals, including many ethnic Greeks and Greek-identifying Aromanians or Arvanitovlachs in addition to ethnic Albanians, that arrived especially during the 1990s, mostly as illegal immigrants; as many as 500,000, according to the Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

According to the Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs it say that 500,000 are ethnic Albanians immigrants and does not include ethnic Greeks, and, how Theathenae put it Greek-identifying.Aromanians. Albanau 17:27, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Are you sure the Greek MFA refers to all Albanians and not just the ones it gave Green Cards to? I live in Greece and I know that most illegal aliens enter the country in secret and are often deported, only to reenter secretly. Indeed they often use deportation as a way to cut their fares in half! I don't see how the Greek MFA can keep accurate records on these people. If they could, they wouldn't let them in in the first place. Chronographos 17:32, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Read [here according to the Greek MFA is not near what Theathenae claimed in the article. Albanau 17:38, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

You don't frankly expect me to read a ... Master of Arts dissertation (!!!) written 3 years ago, do you? What is this, a high-school essay competition? At my age, I have no time for undergraduate drivel. You must do better next time, young man! Chronographos 17:42, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Now your babbling like a crazy man cause you have been crack in this debate. Albanau 17:47, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Your kind words are warmly appreciated Chronographos 17:50, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Albanó, if you'd bothered to read the paragraph you cite, you would know that "Albanians" here refers to Albanian citizens in general, not just ethnic Albanians: "The first wave that crossed the country were mainly political immigrants, when the Greek state opened the Greek-Albanian borders to help the reunification of the Greek minority members living in Albania with their relatives in Greece in 1987. Many of these ethnic Greeks settled in Greece in the beginning of the 90’s and obtained Greek nationality. Afterwards, the majority of Albanians who came were ethnic Albanians and was characterized as economic migrants."--Theathenae 17:48, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Here's the exact quote:

"Albanians are the most prominent group of illegal immigrants in Greece nowadays, estimated around 150,000 by Petrinioti [24] and as much as 500,000 by the Greek ministry of Foreign Affairs [25]." bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 18:09, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Vlachs in Albania, majority wise, dont see themselves as Greek. There is a pro-Greek faction, but that is a minority along with the pro-Romanian faction. Both are politically and economically motivated and mostly not by actual cultural ties. Vlach Papa Lambru Balamaci of Korce certainly did not think he was Greek when Greeks tied him to a tree and shot him dead for blame over the fact that Northern Epirus was going to Albania. I suggest people read this article along with this and this. You will find many of your questions answered. Most Vlachs today, including my father, have been fully assimilated into Albanian society and while many are begining to recognize their vlach roots(including I), they do not forget the fact that they are Albanians. Many have intermarried into Albanian families and Albania has had many prominent Vlachs helping it in its history. As for going to Greece and signing yourself as Greek? I suggest people read this report. Which states;

"There are even cases where Albanian citizens apply for a migrant’s “green card ” but the state refuses it claiming that they are members of the Greek minority in Albania for which a special, preferential procedure applies, even though the applicant makes no such claim. To benefit for that procedure, the applicant will have to go back to Albania, get a new visa and reapply', a difficult and uncertain procedure." Tpilkati 18:03, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

User:Tpilkati, whose profile is non-existent, this is as relevant as African-American slavery before the time of Abraham Lincoln. What exactly are you trying to say? Chronographos 18:16, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

This is relevant due to the fact that Theathenae stated these people are going to Greece and applying as Greeks, when in many occasions this is not so. This pushes the number of Vorio Epirotes higher and ths makes the illusion that there is a high number of minorities in Albania...

Perhaps most of the few Vlachs who did stay in Albania do identify as Albanians, but that says nothing about the community as a whole. As for your second point, are you denying that Albanians have been applying for Greek citizenship?--Theathenae 19:25, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

These Vlachs who left, left for the same reason as Albanians or Greeks. They left for better for a better life. Those who claim they are Greeks do so in order to receive scholarships and even money from the Greek government. Many of them have stated their desire to return to Albania at one point or another. Please athenae, read my articles, written by a Vlach-American.

excerp from the article;

Spiru had earned money working in Greece and his household had an air of prosperity. Greek visas are worth thousands of dollars in Albania, so great is the need for employment that will earn hard currency. Greece has taken to offering visas to the Vlachs of Albania, who have only to' accept the designation "Northern Epirote." This is a brilliant move on the part of the Greeks; they could strengthen the Greek minority if they could count the Vlachs as Greeks, and what better way to do so than to reward people with a visa? Spiru is one of a growing number of Vlachs who have taken advantage of this offer.' He recognizes that by calling himself something other than Ruman (or Aruman) -- the self-designation of the Vlachs -- he has become an instrument of Greek foreign policy. But he has a family to support; and Greece is a nice place to live and to work; and when he's done, he'll return to his family and household in Albania; and anyway, he knows what he is, no matter what his Greek identification card may say; and so you can move one more Vlach from Column A (Vlach or Albanian) to Column B (Greek). This is the way things go in the Balkans.

Am I denying Albanians going for Greek citizenship? No way, most there, the way I view them, would get ready to do the most obsene things for it. This does not change the fact that Greek purposely pushes them into declaring themselves as Epirotes, in order to raise the number of minority in Greece. Tpilkati 19:34, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Hmmmmm, Greek visas sold for "thousands of dollars" (or euros, which would be 20% higher)? I guess the authorities need to know about this! And that there are people ready to sell their soul and identity so that they can sweep the streets. Pink Floyd were right on the , er, money ("Money, so they say, is the root of all evil today ...."). Well, I have three words for you, Mr. Mystery Man Tpilkati: Capitalism is tough. Get used to it. Chronographos 19:53, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Articles written by a Vlach-American contain the opinions of a Vlach-American. They are not representative of the Vlachs in general.--Theathenae 19:40, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Athenae, farsarotul, is a widely known and prominent organization on Vlachs and their diaspora. Considering the vlach who wrote the article was attending a vlachs in Albania event it is trully a neutral and objective article. Chrono, have to complement you, quite a taste for music you have, lol. Tpilkati 19:50, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, my friend, although I prefer the Syd Barrett-era Pink Floyd. Now is "farsarotul" a peer-reviewed journal? Chronographos 20:09, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

This is the first time I am hearing of the peer-reviewed journal. Tpilkati 20:12, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

So I thought, dear, so I thought .... Chronographos 20:14, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

It's Theathenae. One word. Nothing to do with Athenae. As for farsarotul.org, it is a widely known pro-Rumanian organisation; it is not representative of all or even most Vlachs. I don't think the Vlachs who identify as Greeks would appreciate your condescension. Let them decide for themselves what they are and are not.--Theathenae 20:17, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

You said, he said, she said ... Official numbers will be required, and this goes for Theathenae, me, you, or God in Heaven Chronographos 18:33, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

And yes I dont have a profile, because I am relatively new and still havnt gotten used to the site,although I dont know how this should effect, negatively, my post, Tpilkati 18:24, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

It would help in that it would go some way towards establishing that you are not a sockpuppet. Chronographos 18:33, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Cleary what Theathenae have done here is disorting the facts. User Bratsche do you agree? --Albanau 18:30, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Cleary (sic) you need to bring up some facts yourself Chronographos 18:33, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Cleary what Theathenae have done is disorting the facts, just look above and you will see. And please stop babbling! Albanau 18:45, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I'll cut a "cleary" deal with you: I'll agree with whatever you say, so long as you never talk to me again unless you call my secretary and make an appointment first. Fair enough? Chronographos 19:13, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Please, all read Wikipedia:Civility. This is not the place for personal slander, nor childish bickering. A nice, civil discussion is in order. This is to determine a consensus for the facts of this matter. As the article may stand, we all should also remember the policies of a neutral point of view. Both sides of the argument may need to be represented in the article.

I would also like to note that I am neither a referee or a moderator. I am simply another editor who is allowed tp use certain functions on Wikipedia. Anyone can join this discussion, user page or not. My comments at the top were to notify those who were participating in the edit war. Now let us continue in a calm manner. Bratsche^{talk 5 pillars} 20:00, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

But, Bratsche, he started it! :-)))))))))))) Chronographos 20:02, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

According to the International Organization of Labor

If this disagreement is still about the number of Albanians in Greece, It's 438,000 Albanians in Greece as of 2000.[1] Also found an interesting article from Central Europe Review

The total number of immigrants, both legal and illegal, in Greece is thought to be between 400,000 and two million, an estimated 10% to 20% of the Greek work force.

and

In the collective social consciousness crime is closely connected with immigrants, particularly those from Albania. Researchers agree that the percentage of crime for which the Albanians are responsible, compared to the rest of the immigrant population in Greece, was only 4.5%, and was thus directly proportional to their numbers and, therefore, not exceptionally high.

4.5% of 11,000,000 would put it at 495,000. Acerimusdux 23:37, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

All of which is fine and dandy, unknown-user-Acerimusdux (there seem to be "many" like you around lately, huh?) except (1) it is outdated information and (2) it sounds way off topic to me. I would be happy to contribute current numbers and information, but I'm not sure anyone is interested. Should the subject of this discussion change to "Greek policy towards migrants", then it would be relevant. Of course there are some prima facie errors in your statements: the 400,000-2,000,000 figure and the corresponding "percentage of the Greek workforce" are a contradictio in terminis as the former has a 1:5 spread and the latter a 1:2 spread. Therefore, in addition to getting a user page of your own ("Tpilkati" might help you there, hint, hint), you need to work on your math skills. Chronographos 00:11, 19 July 2005 (UTC) (to put it plainly: no math, no peer-reviewed journal)

Chrono, is a user page info that important to you? Because Im rather lazy actually and never really felt like putting a personality on my account. I dont really see it as necessary, I make a post and bring the evidence I feel supports my view and thats it. Does putting a picture me there help so much?Tpilkati 00:55, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

No problem, Tpilkati, I'm sure Acerimusdux agrees with you 100% Chronographos 01:01, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I cant help but think that you believe me and Ace are the same character. I assure you we are not. Tpilkati 02:18, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Multiple personality disorder appears to be endemic on Wikipedia.--Theathenae 08:08, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Not to mention Folie à deux. Or trois. Or quattre. Or ... Chronographos 09:43, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

It's so typical and pathetic of you two, Theathenae and Chronographos, don't try to escape from Acerimusdux valid arguments. If you think that he is the same person as Tpilkati bring up some real evidence insteed of speculating all the time. We don't accept hypothetical evidence. A real evidence must be valid and not vague for us to accept, so far you have not bring up any real evidence only hypothetical ones.

About the number of Albanians in Greece I'm still awaiting to hear from you Theathenae. The Greek MFA say they are 500, 000 Albanians in Greece but you claim that some of them are Greeks and Greek-identified Vlachs from Albania, thats very much incongruous. Albanau 11:14, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

incongruous with what? Chronographos 11:21, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Illegal Albanians immigrants are estimated as much as 500,000 by the Greek ministry of Foreign Affairs. Theathenae said that this also includes many ethnic Greeks and Greek-identifying Aromanians which made it all very incongruous. Clearly Theathenae have disorted the facts by the Greek MFA. --Albanau 11:55, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

See how right I was when criticising your English? Your reading comprehension is not that much better than your writing, unfortunately. Theathenae could not have said (and did not say) that, because by definition an Albanian citizen seeking "ethnic Greek" status from the MFA cannot be an illegal alien. An illegal alien hides from the authorities for fear of deportation. If anything is "very incongruous", it's your statements. Chronographos 14:51, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Chrono: It is unfortunate that you think that no one would be interested in any current numbers and information you have to provide, but nonetheless believe that we are all interested in your insults and abuse, which is what you seem to be contributing to this discussion instead. So far on this page, you have criticized one poster's English (on a topic in which it is quite obvious that many non-native English speakers will have quite a bit to contribute), condescendingly in another response referred to the poster as "young man", criticized another poster for not having a user page, condescendingly referred to that poster as "dear" in another response, picked on a typographical error in another post, and then in a followup told that poster to "never talk to me again". And all that before starting in with me. Did you think that the request for civility above didn't apply to you?

As for the creation of a user page, apparently this act doesn't help to teach one manners, or aid one in making productive contributions. I'm sure the opportunities for self promotion inherent in a page dedicated to oneself would appeal to the more vainglorious and self centered; but from the evidence I've seen thus far here, for now I'm content to count myself amongst those users without one.

As for the ILO, it is an agency of the United Nations, a reasonably official source. Moreover, if you looked at the page linked, you would have seen it clearly stated that the original source of the data is the National Statistical Service of Greece, which is the Greek governmental organization which the "Ministry of Foreign Affairs" would rely on. As a primary source, and a more authoritative one, it would probably make a better citation than the current article, even if it essentially confirms the number already there. And, when CER refers to the "total number of immigrants" I believe they are likely referring to the total number of immigrants; not just those in the workforce. And while peer-reviewed journals are good for some things, I doubt you're going to find many academics who are doing a better job of counting people in Greece than the Greek Census. If you want to search through them for information on the number of Albanians in Greece, the self-identification of the Arvanites or Aromanians, or evidence that Cham Albanians are all Muslim, be my guest, and provide the source. In the meantime, I happen to think exploring such online sources as the United Nations, the U.S. Government, and prominent international NGO's might be helpful.

Last, if you're "too old" to bother to read links others provide, you ought to be also too mature to comment on them with the kind of sophmoric abuse that makes this look more like a Yahoo message board rather than a Wikipedia talk page. Acerimusdux 11:49, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

And you question is??? Chronographos 11:58, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

A couple more interesting links

invgr.com

Between July 2003 and October 2004, 700,000 residence permits were issued with 509,000 permits in force in January 2004, which fell to 250,000 permits in September 2004, the survey showed. The highest percentage of immigrants with residence permits were Albanians at 63.2%, followed by Bulgarians (9.8%), Romanians (4.3%), Ukrainians (3.4%), Pakistanis (2.4%), and Georgians (2.2%).

Country Rports on Human Rights Practices From the 2003 report on Europe and Asia 92839EU.pdf, the section on Greece, pg. 244:

National/Racial/Ethnic Minorities.--Anti-foreigner sentiment existed and was directed mainly at Albanians, who made up approximately 5 percent of the population. Approximately 500,000 of the estimated 1 million aliens in the country were Albanians. While Albanian legal residents encountered less official discrimination than Albanians residing in the country illegally, Albanian immigrants faced widespread societal discrimination.

A number of citizens identified themselves as Turks, Pomaks, Vlachs, Roma, Arvanites (Orthodox Christians who speak a dialect of Albanian), or "Macedonians" or "Slavomacedonians." The Government formally recognizes only the "Muslim minority" (see Section 2.c.), and does not officially acknowledge the existence of any ethnic groups, principally Slavophones, under the term "minority." However, the Government has affirmed an individual right of self-identification. As a result, some individuals who defined themselves as members of a minority found it difficult to express their identity freely and to maintain their culture. Use of the terms "Tourkos" and "Tourkikos" ("Turk" and "Turkish") is prohibited in titles of organizations, although individuals legally may call themselves "Tourkos." To most Greeks, the words "Tourkos" and "Tourkikos" connote Turkish identity or loyalties, and many object to their use by Greek citizens of Turkish origin. At year's end, an appeal from the "Turkish Union of Xanthi" and a petition for the establishment of a "Turkish Women's Union" were pending in court.

It seems to me that the 500,000 figure is generally accepted in the absence of other evidence, but that the description of Arvanites as "Orthodox Christians who speak a dialect of Albanian" may be better supported than the current article version. But I need a few more sources to be sure. Acerimusdux 12:31, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Hey Acerimusdux! Here, from Encyclopædia Britannica, The Albanians in Greece.

The origins of the Albanians (Albanoi/Arvanitai in Greek) remain uncertain. They appear to be the descendants of the Illyrian populations who withdrew into the highlands of the central Dinaric chain. Their name may originate from the valley of the Arbanon (along the Shkumbi River) in the theme of Dyrrachion (Durrës/Durazzo), in which they were first noted by outside commentators. Their language probably evolved from ancient Illyrian (formerly classed with the Hellenic group of Indo-European languages but now generally recognized as an independent member of the latter family), but it is heavily influenced by Greek, Slavic, and Turkish, as well as medieval Italian. For reasons not yet fully understood, the Albanians began in the 14th century to advance into the western coastal plain, where they served both Byzantine and Serbian overlords as well as ruling independently under various warlords and chiefly families; they were also present in considerable numbers in Thessaly, Boeotia, Attica, and the Peloponnese, serving as soldiers and as farmers, colonizing deserted lands. Albanians arrived in large numbers in the Peloponnese during the reign of the despotes Manuel Kantakouzenos, who brought them there to serve as soldiers and to resettle depopulated regions. The impact of their presence on the region's existing ethnic and linguistic structure remains debated. Albanau 12:39, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

If you want to discuss "Greek Policy Towards Migrants", I'l be more than happy to engage you. But first it has to be established that the issue is within the scope to the Albanians article. Chronographos 14:32, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Greek Helsinki report

http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html:

"Arvanites are those whose mother tongue is Arvanitika (name in Greek - Αρβανίτες)/ Arberichte (name in their language); most linguists use the word Albanian for that language, but the community loathes its use, and it is therefore advisable that this sensitivity be taken into consideration unless researchers and/or human and minority rights activists do not mind alienating the very community they are studying. Likewise, they call themselves Arvanites (in Greek) and Arberor (in their language); but in Northwestern Greece, in their language, they use the term Shqiptar (the same used by Albanians of Albania), a term strongly disliked by the other Arvanites, who also resent being called Albanians."--Theathenae 13:44, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

You do the research, you interpret it and also ignore simple facts. It's your duty to lie, conceal and disort everything, and slander everybody. Sorry but I can't find any neutral sources that say that the Arvanites are the descendants of settlers sharing a common origin with the Tosks of central and southern Albania.. [2] and that the Arvanitic language [3] is a language sharing a common origin with Tosk Albanian, every neutral sources say that they are the descendants of settlers of Albanian ancestry and that their mother-tongue Arvanítika is a variety of Tosk Albanian! Can some one please review the article Arvanitic language and Arvanites?

Albanian language (Encyclopædia Britannica Article) Dialects

All of the Albanian dialects spoken in Italian and Greek enclaves are of the Tosk variety and seem to be related most closely to the dialect of Çamëria in the extreme south of Albania.

Linguistic Anthropology of Praxis and Language Shift: Arvanitika (Albanian) and Greek in Contact Oxford University Press by Lukas D Tsitsipis

Arvanítika, a variety of Tosk Albanian spoken in Greece for more than four centuries....

Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity Cambridge University Press by Jonathan M Hall

These Arvanites are descended from Albanians who first entered Greece between the eleventh and fifteenth centuries (though there was a subsequent wave of immigration in the second half of the eighteenth century.)

Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World Princeton University Press by Loring M. Danforth

There is also a small group of Arvanites, who speak a dialect of Albanian and who, like the Vlach, have developed a strong sense of Greek national identity.

--Albanau 15:21, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't see what the point of all this is. I know nothing about Arvanite and Tosk, so I'll limit my response to the ethnicity question. What you are saying in essence is that, because of the Medieval migrations (e.g. Norman rule over England), there is a percentage of Englishmen now who should rightly be called "Ethnic French"? Chronographos 16:10, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

"Most linguists use the word Albanian for that language, but the community loathes its use, and it is therefore advisable that this sensitivity be taken into consideration unless researchers and/or human and minority rights activists do not mind alienating the very community they are studying."--Theathenae 16:08, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

You two are continuing ignoring simple facts, that i: the Arvanites are the descendants of settlers of Albanian ancestry and the Arvanitic language is a variety of Tosk Albanian.

Chronographos no one have denied the admixture of Arvanites but descendancy is another thing. If Arvanites are as you and Theathenae claim, descendants of settlers sharing a common origin with Tosk, can you please tell me the other origin of those settlers? Every acknowledge neutral sources including the Encyclopædia Britannica strongly disagrees with your point of view. Look on the Encyclopædia Britannica article about the Albanians in Greece and the Dialects of Albanian language. Albanau 16:58, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I asked you before and I am asking you yet again: don't ask me linguistic questions, I know nothing about Arvanite and Tosk. As to the ethnicity question, I answered it with the Norman/French parallel above. Chronographos 17:30, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Albanau, can you make a suggestion of how would you phrase it in the article? The article currently acknowledges that thy arrived from Albania speaking a dialect of Tosk. Perhaps you feel the way it is phrased may be a bit Greek-centric? But to me it seems like you are saying almost the same thing in a slightly different way. On your earlier point, I'm sure there are alot of Greeks with Illryian ancestry (or Thracian), but do you want to go back 3000 years and claim them all as Albanians? Or simply ackmowledge some common ancestry between some Greeks and some Albanians? I think the issue of self identification is a valid one, particularly for more recent immigrants who most likely still would self-identify as Albanian (especially as many are unable to easily do so due to political pressures). But go back a few generations and certainly you will more likely have people by now identifying more as Greek. With regard to the Arvanites, perhaps most simply identify as Arvanites, and we should leave it at that? I think it's well established that liguists consider the language another Albanian dialect. Maybe we can make that point without actually calling them Albanians, if that is a sensitive issue?

It may be a sensitive issue not only for Arvanites, but because of the threat that some extremist Albanian nationalist might wish to make claims on present day Greek territory.

With regard to Cham Muslims - it appears this is also a sensitive issue, as for one, a small number of Cham villages remained in Albania, and thus are still a mixture of Christian and Muslim. Since Albania is 70% Muslim, it is not surprising that a large number of Cham are Muslim; but as a southern region, historically it appears to have been a lesser percentage than that, probably no more than about 50%. But since the Greeks (General Zervas?) only persecuted and drove out the Muslims, I suppose it might be technically correct that at least 'most' of the refugees 'in Albania' are Muslim. But to say only:

"Cham" Muslim Albanians; an unknown number reside in the Greek region of Epirus (Çamëria in Albanian) - there were thought to be around 100,000 before the end of World War II, during which many fled to Albania.

Strikes me as a bit of a whitewash. There are a small number of Albanian Muslims remaining in Chameria. Perhaps the larger number of Albanian Christians who remained now prefer to identify as Greek; and perhaps some don't have much choice. But to completely ignore the issue of Cham Christians, and neglect to mention 'why' the Muslims fled strikes me as selective. Perhaps Theathenae can agree to a rewording here that doesn't change the facts? If you have to say something like "Albanians generally view" such and such, while "Greeks view" ....

I get the impression that most people here know all this history better than I do, and can correct me if I'm wrong on the facts. But I'm not sure this is even a dispute over the facts. It seems to be an argument more over the phrasing, in both these cases, than over what the actual history is. Remember, everyone has a POV. If you don't like the way someone phrases something, it doesn't mean they are deliberately trying to distort. If we can all at least agree on the essential facts, maybe we can negotiate a phrasing in the disputed passages that would reflect a more NPOV?

Acerimusdux 18:03, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Acerimusdux Quote:

On your earlier point, I'm sure there are alot of Greeks with Illryian ancestry (or Thracian), but do you want to go back 3000 years and claim them all as Albanians? Or simply ackmowledge some common ancestry between some Greeks and some Albanians? I

This is absolutely unintelligible, not to mention that you sound very unintelligent and it is very unintelligent way of thinking. There is no such minority in Greece who claim descendant to ancient Greeks with Illyrian/Thracian ancestry or who claim descendant by both Greeks and Illyrian/Thracian ethnic groups. If let us say such minority exist then that minority claim descendant to ancient Greeks with Illyrian/Thracian ancestry or otherwise as you also put it, claim descendant by both Greeks and Illyrian/Thracian ethnic groups.

I know that a minority in Albania called Jevg exist, they claim descendant of Egyptian mercenaries that enter Albania with Alexander the Great army. Then this minority are descendant of the egyptian mercenaries, and not descedants of a people sharing a common origin with egyptian mercenaries.

Acerimusdux Quote:

Albanau, can you make a suggestion of how would you phrase it in the article? The article currently acknowledges that thy arrived from Albania speaking a dialect of Tosk. Perhaps you feel the way it is phrased may be a bit Greek-centric? But to me it seems like you are saying almost the same thing in a slightly different way.

It may be a sensitive issue not only for Arvanites, but because of the threat that some extremist Albanian nationalist might wish to make claims on present day Greek territory.

You must understand this is not about Albanian chavunism/extream nationalism and spreading anti- Greek propaganda. And Theathane must try to understand the meaning of 'neutral point of view' on the articles. He is intitled on his opinion on the talk pages but he should keep his point of view from disorting historical facts.

Let me clarify to you again, no one have denied the admixture of the Arvanites but descendancy is another thing. It was very wrong to have erased Arvanites are descendants of settlers of Albanian ancestry and replace it with sharing a common origin with the Tosks. That was clearly a demonstration of Theathanes nationalist Greek agenda. Those people who settled in Thessaly, Boeotia, Attica, and the Peloponnese were not a mishmash of people sharing common origin with Tosk, those settlers were ethnic Albanians. I brought evidence for that didint I, read the Britannica article once again.

Correctly speaking of the Arvanites dispite the admixture they are the descendant of settlers of Albanian ancestry since Albanians are classed as an ethnicity regardless of the fact that the nation did not exist then as a modern state.

So I suggest it will be phrase in the article Arvanites and Arvanitic language like every other acknowledge neutral sources phrase it: descendants of settlers of Albanian ancestry, and the language a variety of Tosk Albanian. --Albanau 21:09, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Albanau, Just because I am ignorant doesn't mean that I am unintelligent. I simply wanted you to clarify the relevance of your Encyclopedia Brittanica quote for me. Going back 3000 was meant to be a bit of exageration. As for going back as far as the 14th Century, I agree with the statement that "Arvanites are descendants of settlers of Albanian ancestry", I simply wanted to clarify that you aren't trying to claim that they would be considered Albanians in this century. Chronographos seemed to have gotten that impression, thus his Norman - English analogy. But you are clearly stating "descendants of settlers of Albanian ancestry" which is a very different thing, and quite reasonable I think. However, you will have to be patient and explain to me how much this differes from "sharing a common origin with the Tosks". To me "sharing a common origin" means about the same as "descendants of", though, as a matter of style, the latter seems less clumsy. And, to my understanding, Tosks are also ethnic Albanians. Is that incorrect? Though I can't see a good reason for the changes, I also didn't perceive the significance of them you see; but you may have a greater understanding than I do of the political significance of some of these phrases. I thank you for your patience in explaining them. As for the current article's phrasing:

The ancestors of the Arvanites are thought to have arrived from Albania during the Middle Ages, speaking a language closely related to Tosk; today they consider themselves Greek and few speak their ancestral tongue; between 140,000 and 1,600,000.

It does seem that this may be going out of the way to avoid saying that the Arvanites have an Albanian origin. "Thought to have arrived from" seems to suggest that the point is uncertain, as well as making it appear to be an entirely a geographic matter. How about

"The ancestors of the Arvanites were Tosk Albanians who are thought to have arrived during the Middle Ages. While Greek Arvanites today no longer self-identify as Albanian, liguists consider the Arvanite language to be as much an Albanian dialect as a distinct tougue."

Acerimusdux 00:47, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Hey Acerimusdux! I said that it was absolutely unintelligible when you said something about Greeks descendants of Illyrian or Thracian ancestry, that sounded very unintelligent and it was of course a very unintelligent way of thinking, do you agree? I never actually said you were unintelligent I just aim on the comparison you made that was careless.

Gegs are northern Albanians and Tosk are southern Albanians and together they constitute the whole of the Albanian population.

The Arvanites have a hellenized ethnicity of course but dispite the admixture there descandancy still is Albanian. The immigrants or the descendants of Arvanites that settled in Greece during Middle Ages were not a mishmash of people sharing common origin with Tosk (aim to the Tosk Albanians). They were Albanian immigrants thus make Arvanites descendants of the Albanian immigrants.

'The ancestors of the Arvanites are thought to have arrived from Albania during the Middle Ages, speaking a language closely related to Tosk; today they consider themselves Greek and few speak their ancestral tongue; between 140,000 and 1,600,000.

Yes, this conceal the ethnic Albanian background of the Arvanites ancestors that arrived from Albania and settled in Greece. Another incorrect thing is the Arvanitic language, is not a language closely related to Tosk, the Arvanitic language is a variety of Tosk Albanian language.

The ancestors of the Arvanites were Tosk Albanians who are thought to have arrived during the Middle Ages. While Greek Arvanites today no longer self-identify as Albanian, liguists consider the Arvanite language to be as much an Albanian dialect as a distinct tougue.

Here your not making the linguistic links clear, disorting the fact that every serious linguist who studied the Arvanitic language consider it as a variety of Tosk Albania, and you are also dividing the Arvanitic people in groups in your own speculative way. I would rephrase it like this, The ancestors of the Arvanites were Albanians who are thought to have arrived in Greece during the Middle Ages. Their mother tongue is Arvanitika, a variety of Tosk Albanian. The Arvanites, in similar with the Vlach, have developed a strong sense of Greek national identity.

This would be the most correct thing to say about the Arvanites and the Arvanitic language: Arvanites are descendants of settlers of Albanian ancestry and Arvanitic language is variety of Tosk Albanian.

Awaits to hear from you. // Albanau 02:38, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Albanau, I appreciate that you didn't intend to inult me. But, given the tone of some of the discussion on this board so far, you might try to be a little more careful with your choice of words. I don't know what prior history exists between you and Theathenae or Chronographos, but regardless of who started with the insults, and when, you have also contributed, by calling them "pathetic", and by saying it was Theathenae's "duty to lie, conceal, and distort." It think will be easier to resolve this if we all make an effort to avoid insults and instead address the disputed passges (which you are doing very well).

As for the passage, is this close enough?

The ancestors of the Arvanites were Albanians who likely arrived in Greece during the Middle Ages. While Greek Arvanites today no longer self-identify as Albanian, linguists consider their language, Arvanitika, to be a dialect of Tosk Albanian.

And, I also wanted to make sure you have no concerns still about the 500,000 number in the following passage, which was the subject of the earlier dispute:

Albanian nationals, including many ethnic Greeks and Greek-identifying Aromanians or Arvanitovlachs in addition to ethnic Albanians, that arrived especially during the 1990s, mostly as illegal immigrants; as many as 500,000, according to the Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

I realize you have a number of issues with this paragraph as it is now phrased, I just wanted to make sure you have no disagreement with the 500,000 number. The 150,000 figure in the link you provided referenced an article in the Journal of European Social Policy from 1998. Since they only have issues after 1999 available online, I was unable to trace the source from that article, but the initial source could well be a bit older. I also found a link to a recent report from the Institute of Statistics of Albania

In 1995, the number of emigrants was likely to have been between 450 000 and 500 000 (three-fifths living in Greece, one fifth in Italy and one fifth in Western Europe). In 2002, about 750 000 Albanians were living outside their country (cf. Papapanagos et Sanfey, 2001, and others).(p.34)

and, according to a statistical model

Whereas the Albanian population was enumerated at 3.07 million in the 2001 census, in principle, it would have reached 3.78 million had no migration taken place. The difference between these two figures indicates the total impact of emigration, i.e. approximately 710 000 individuals (390 000 men and 320 000 women). The impact is two-fold: direct impact (individuals who have left the country) and indirect impact (children of emigrants born abroad). The direct impact, which represents the migratory balance, is likely to amount to approximately 600 000 to 650 000 individuals, whereas the indirect impact is less than 100 000 individuals. Therefore, it seems reasonable to conclude that more than 600 000 individuals left Albania between 1989 and 2001 and were living abroad in 2001 (Table 20).

Since 710,000 *3/5 points to about 420,000 Albanians in Greece (from post 1989 migration), and this is very close to the number from the Greek Census of the same year (438,000), it seems as though the two governments essentially agree as of that date, and that, as emigration has continued, although at a lesser pace, the number is very likely in the area of 500,000 by now. Do you agree?

Acerimusdux 15:11, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Albanau, I apologize but I want to try this one more time. It appears that linguists disagree somewhat as to what is a language opposed to a dialect, but that Arvaites consider their language to be a distict language, and it seems to normally be recognized as such[4], so I think I should ammend this again:

The ancestors of the Arvanites were Albanians who likely arrived in Greece during the Middle Ages. While Greek Arvanites today no longer self-identify as Albanian, their language, Arvanitika, is derived from an older version of Tosk Albanian, and is still partially intelligible to speakers of Tosk. There remain an estimated 150,000 speakers today in Greece. An unknown number of individuals with Arvanite ancestry have more fully assimilated into Greek culture. Acerimusdux 19:30, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Erase your invented term "Greek Arvanites". If it is so as you claim that Arvanites who identify themself as Greek call themself Greek Arvanites, if this term exist I want some evidence for this!

Ethnologue calls Arvanitic a language cause it has dialects within and classifies it as Indo-European, Albanian, Tosk. Thus make Arvanitic language a variety of Tosk Albanian. Read the sources from Britannica, Oxford, Princeton and Cambridge that I provided you with. I have no time tow write a longer message, I will return again and give you my thoughts. Albanau 21:17, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Question for Bratsche

If this discussion is to lead anywhere, you will have to formulate the specific, individual questions that need to be answered. Chronographos 14:32, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Acerimusdux

Thanks for your contribution to the discussion, Acerimusdux. You have submitted a couple of "compromise" proposals to rephrase the current description of the Arvanites:

"The ancestors of the Arvanites were Tosk Albanians who are thought to have arrived during the Middle Ages. While Greek Arvanites today no longer self-identify as Albanian, liguists consider the Arvanite language to be as much an Albanian dialect as a distinct tougue."

"The ancestors of the Arvanites were Albanians who likely arrived in Greece during the Middle Ages. While Greek Arvanites today no longer self-identify as Albanian, their language, Arvanitika, is derived from an older version of Tosk Albanian, and is still partially intelligible to speakers of Tosk. There remain an estimated 150,000 speakers today in Greece. An unknown number of individuals with Arvanite ancestry have more fully assimilated into Greek culture."

In fact, the Arvanites have never self-identified as Tosks or Albanians. They have always self-identified as Αρbε̰ρόρ (Arbërór), i.e. Arvanites. If we are to understand the complexities of the situation, a distinction must be made between the terms Arvanite and Albanian. Prominent Greek linguist and current Rector of the University of Athens, Professor Georgios Babiniotis,[5] states in his Lexicon of the Modern Greek Language (1998) that the two terms have been falsely conflated, and in fact do not share the same etymology. The ancient name Albanian derives from the Latin Albanus (Mons), the name of a mountain in the Italian region of Latium. On the other hand, the term Arvanite is a mediaeval term first used many centuries later by the Byzantines to describe the inhabitants of a region in what is today central Albania. This means that instead of the Arvanites being of "Albanian" ancestry, both the Arvanites and the Tosk Albanians are descendants of what might more properly be called the proto-Arvanites.

Of course, Albania is the name given to the country by foreigners. The Albanians call their country Shqipëri and themselves Shqipëtare. But those who identify as Arvanites in Greece have never used this name to describe themselves. Thus, they cannot properly be called Albanians or people of Albanian ancestry, as this would be an anachronism: projecting the modern national identity of the Shqipëtare on a community that has always self-identified as Arbërór. If the Arvanites didn't mind being called Albanians, this would not be an issue, as their ancestors did come from modern Albania after all. However, as the Greek Helsinki report stresses in its opening paragraph, the Arvanites "loathe" the use of the term Albanian to describe themselves or their language in any way. The fact that the Tosks switched from calling themselves Arbërór to calling themselves Shqipëtare does not mean that this can or should be applied to the Arvanites, who never identified with the modern Albanian nation. A more nuanced description of the Arvanites would be "a people sharing a common (i.e. proto-Arvanitic) origin with the Tosk Albanians". This way, the link with the modern Albanians is acknowledged, but in a way that does not offend the Arvanites' sensibilities. Similarly, the Inuit are no longer referred to as Eskimos, a term they find offensive, and the Croats are no longer referred to as "Catholic Serbs", a common description until at least a century ago. The Croatian and Serbian languages are practically identical - unlike Arvanitic and Albanian which are barely 50% mutually intelligible - but no one today describes Croatian as a "variety" of Serbian, except perhaps for a few Serbian extremists. They share a common origin, yes, but they are considered separate languages today because of the ethnic self-identification of their speakers. The existence of various references to the Arvanites as "Albanians" does not alter the fact that this is, to use your words, a "whitewash", an anachronistic and simplistic, if not outright imperialistic, use of nomenclature, even if it does have the benefit of being more succinct and convenient. But misguided simplicity and convenience cannot and should not take precedence over the sensitivies of an entire people, especially not in the twenty-first century. The Arvanites deserve better.--Theathenae 18:16, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

You statements seem very contradictory. Albanians are classed as an ethnicity regardless of the fact that the nation did not exist then as a modern state. The Albanians today in the modern state Albania are the descendant to the people of Arbëria or Arbania i.e. medieval Albania who called themself Arbreshë. The descendant of the Albanian immigrants still present in Greece and Italy have been called in different ways with the passing of the years: Arbënuer, Arbënor, Arbëneshë, Arbreshë. Albanians in the modern state Albania however call themself Shqiptar. There seems to be no doubt that the root Alb- or Arb- is earlier than Shqip-, from which the modern name of the state (Shqipëria) derives, a name which appears only in the time of the Turkish invasions. In here you get your answer why they don't call themself Shqiptar but Arbéror and Arbereshë which is a preservation of the old term for Albanian. And read the sources from Cambridge University Press, Princeton University Press, Oxford University Press and Encyclopædia Britannica that all say that Arvanítis are the descendant of the Albanian immigrants and the Arvanitic language a variety of Tosk Albanian. Just keep your views from distorting the articles! Albanau 19:34, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I have no objection to using your own words in the article proper: "Arvanites are descendants of the Arbreshë, people from Arbëria or Arbania (i.e. medieval Albania) who migrated to Greece during the late Middle Ages ..." Chronographos 22:48, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Chronographos, little correction to make it clear.... "Arvanites are descendants of the Arberesh people or the Albanian people from Arbëria (i.e. medieval Albania) who migrated to Greece during the late Middle Ages.... any objections? --Albanau 00:16, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

No, I cannot accept this. I bent over backwards to accomodate your own words for use in the article, and now you come back on them and change them again??? Sorry, no compromise there. Chronographos 00:39, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Why don't you accept this, it is the same thing. Arberesh/Albanian! I really don't understand you this time? Care to evaluate?... probably you wan't it to be written like this Arvanites are descendants of the Arberesh people from Arbëria (i.e. medieval Albania) who migrated to Greece during the late Middle Ages... you wan't to hide their ethnicity? you just wan't to say they are Arberesh people, and not mention the or Albanian people. Albanau 02:51, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Maybe because I like to use your own words. Case in point: if "it is the same thing", why don't you accept it? Chronographos 09:20, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

The question is to you, why don't you accept it? I just wan't it to make clear for readers that Arberesh people are Albanian people so they do not confuse it. So what is the problem? Albanau 12:10, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Quit playing games, Albanau. Arvanite Greeks are not "ethnic Albanians". They are Greek citizens, they possess and profess their Greek national identity, and they have not been interested in learning the Arvanitic language, a language about to become totally extinct. These facts cannot change just because you disagree. As I have said before, there was a large-scale Norman incursion into England in the Middle Ages. Does anyone regard the descendants of those Normans as "ethnic French"? Chronographos 14:37, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, here's how I might put it

500,000 in Greece, nearly all of whom have emigrated since 1989. Emigration previously had been forbidden for over 4 decades by the then communist government. This number, however, includes some Greeks and Aromanians, as well as ethnic Albanians.

In addition, there are two groups in Greece who can be considered to have Albanian ancestry:

Approximately 40,000 residents of the southern part of Epirus were Christians who were easily assimilated into Greek culture after the region of Epirus (Çamëria in Albanian) became part of Greece in 1913. Few "Cham" Muslims however, remain in Greece; over 25,000 were driven from the country near the end of World War II.
The Arvanites arrived in Greece from what is today known as Albania sometime between the 13th and 15th centuries. Their language, Arvanitika, is derived from an older version of Tosk Albanian, and is still partially intelligible to speakers of Tosk. There remain an estimated 150,000 speakers today in Greece, and as many as 1,600,000 individuals of Arvanite descent who have more fully assimilated.

This probably reflects my own biases. Born & living in the U.S., I'm not accustumed to associating ethnicity with nationality. Which is maybe why I didn't at first grasp Albanau's concern about the difference between "descended from" and "sharing a common origin", which didn't seem of such great importance to me. It's also why I made the mistake of using "Greek Arvanites," when I should have known by then that that would be a problem (in my mind, they're in Greece for 500 years, they're Greek; but I'm associating nationality with location more than anything else - and the modifier wasn't really needed, but I guess I was trying to please everyone)

At the same time, I haven't really seen a good answer for the question Bogdan raised above " why you only include the Muslim Albanians and leave beside the Cham Christian Albanians." Are the facts here in dispute? My understanding is that the Greeks seem to identify nationality more with culture and especially religion. But to me it seems like you are claiming the Christians are (and always were?) Greek, and the Muslims are Albanian. Both had ancestors who were a part of the Byzantine Empire; does that make them Greek? The Muslims were converted in the 17th-18th centuries. Did they then become "not-Greek"? And are they therefore then Albanian by default?

BTW, this is my version of Chameria; I wasn't trying to hide, just wasn't signed in. If I got anything wrong I'm sure you'll let me know.

I'm willing to be persuaded if I'm wrong. And, I'll pretty much go with what everyone else can agree on (if that exists) anyway 66.177.240.157 08:32, 23 July 2005 (UTC)(Acerimusdux)

Your version of "Chameria" is unacceptable, as it states that "it first came under Greek influence at the time of the Byzantine Empire in the 4th century". But more on this on the relevant talk page. Also, no one mentioned "Greek Arvanites" (as opposed to what Arvanites?). The Arvanites of Greece are Greeks: they have possessed solid Greek national conscience as early as that can be ascertained, i.e. the War of Independence, they have reached the highest offices of the land, either elected (including Presidents of the Republic Pavlos Kountouriotis and Alexandros Zaimis and Prime Ministers Ioannis Kolettis, Antonios Kriezis, Athanasios Miaoulis, Thrasivoulos Zaimis, and maybe more, Theodoros Pangalos, etc) or in the Civil and military Service, and have never identified with any nation other than their homeland, Greece. Therefore there is no way around referring to the Arvanites of Greece as Arvanite Greeks. This indeed should happen by virtue of their Greek citizenship only (like Mexican Americans, since you live in the US). But their citizenship is not the only ingredient of their Greekness, their uniformly staunch Greek national consciousness is also beyond any doubt. I would also like to see evidence of current Muslim presence in Epirus, and evidence that the people you call "Christian Chams in Epirus" identify themselves as such. Chronographos 12:50, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Chronographos can you explain to me, is an Arvanite Greek ethnic Greek, do he or she speak Greek, and is this Arvanite Greek bound to the Greek culture? Does this Arvanite Greek fell Greek?

One thing I don't understand is why you don't compare the Arvanites with the Arbëreshë, the Albanians of Italy. And why do you ignore simple facts from Britannica, Oxford University Press, Cambridge University Press, Princeton University Press, that say Arvanites are descended from Albanians and that Arvanítika is a variety of Tosk Albanian! Now weather you like it or not this information are taken from actual scholars and current scholarly references, so, they are legitimate and so they can be used, and they will remain in the article according to policy.

Both of you Theathenae and Chronographos should keep your 'point of view' outside the article. Albanau 15:13, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

The answers to your initial questions are : yes, yes, yes and yes. I know my first yes will make you throw a fit, but genetics studies done by Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza show distinct genetic differences marking Greeks as separate from all their neighboring peoples. Since the largest Greek samples for these studies came from Attica, and therefore included a large proportion of Arvanites, it seems that even if you had the weird inclination to seek for Greater Albania in the Greek DNA, Greek DNA respectfully disagrees. I do not compare the Arvanites with the Arbëreshë of Italy because that Wiki article was written by yourself, L'Houngan and Bogdangiusca. It's rather simple, isn't it? Chronographos 16:06, 23 July 2005 (UTC) (I see that you 're up to your little games again. Some things never change ...)

I think you may be misinterpreting the work of Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza According to the article:

One of the most important geneticists of the 20th century, he has summed up his work for laymen under five topics covered in Genes, Peoples, and Languages (2000), which Jared Diamond praised for "demolishing scientists' attempts to classify human populations into races in the same way that they classify birds and other species into races."

and:

"Cavalli-Sforza initiated a new field of research by combining the concrete findings of demography with a newly-available analysis of blood groups in an actual human population."

And interestingly, the article on blood types contains a link to a Racial and Etnic Distribution of ABO Bloodtypes, in which Albanians and Greeks appear be genetically amongst the most closely related by blood group distribution of the 87 nationalities listed:

_O _A _B AB

40 42 14 05 Greeks

38 43 13 06 Albanians

I doubt that Cavalli-Sforza would draw the conclusions you are drawing from his work. More likely he would find the cultural perception of Greeks and Albanians as distinct races to be not scientifically supported at all by genetics. To quote another souce influenced by Cavalli-Sforza [6]

Since it would be possible to divide up humanity into radically different groupings using blood typing instead of other genetically inherited traits such as skin color, we have more conclusive evidence that the commonly used typological model for understanding human variation is scientifically unsound.

The more we study the precise details of human variation, the more we understand how complex are the patterns. They cannot be easily summarized or understood. Yet, this hard-earned scientific knowledge is generally ignored in most countries because of more demanding social and political concerns. As a result, discrimination based on presumed "racial" groups still continues. It is important to keep in mind that this "racial" classification often has more to do with cultural and historical distinctions than it does with biology. In a very real sense, "race" is a distinction that is created by culture not biology.

Acerimusdux 21:00, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Cavalli-Sforza's work started with ABO bloodgroups but has since moved to better, less crude techniques. But that's beside the point. I couldn't agree more with the last paragraph you quoted. It is culture that is important, not genetics. Any notion to the contrary smacks of Nazism, and I think you'll agree with that. Genetics studies are useful to trace migrations and to cast light on the prehistorical past, but nothing more. Indeed, despite my not inconsiderable genetics training, I feel quite uncomfortable discussing such issues, because of the extremist (i.e. racist) ideological burden they often carry. Chronographos 22:43, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Firstly I'm not L'Hounga, secondly L'Hounga as it seam only upploaded a picture. And for the third you do not make any good arguments and are once again ignoring simple facts, and you tend to get off topic and you are more concentrated on making a Ad hominem-arguments then discussing the issue.,,, And please answer my questions like a sensible human being why you don't compare the Arvanites with the Arbëreshë, nevermind the Wiki article cause there alot of sources about the Arbereshe els where, and tell me do you disagree with Britannica, Oxford University Press, Cambridge University Press and Princeton University Press? --Albanau 16:24, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

RFC Issue 1

The article currently reads:

In Greece, there were more waves of immigration from Albania, from the 13th century to the 1990s. As such, they are divided into different groups:

* "Cham" Muslim Albanians; an unknown number reside in the Greek region of Epirus (Çamëria in Albanian) - there were thought to be around 100,000 before the end of World War II, during which many fled to Albania.

Some have questioned the appropriateness of the addition of "Muslim" as a modifier (not contained in the previous version), questioning whether all "Chams" are Muslim. Additionally, some favor a more direct description of the circumstances under which nearly all Muslims left the region. Acerimusdux 00:27, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

RFC Issue 2

Currrent text:

* The ancestors of the Arvanites are thought to have arrived from Albania during the Middle Ages, speaking a language closely related to Tosk; today they consider themselves Greek and few speak their ancestral tongue; between 140,000 and 1,600,000.

The dispute here seems to center arround the phrases "thought to have arrived from Albania" and the description of the language as "closely related to Tosk". The previous version simply described them as Albanians, and that author has since argued for the phrase "descended from Albanians", and suggests that the language should be described as "derived from Tosk Albanian". The author of the current version identifies himself as having Arvanite ancestry and objects to being labeled Albanian. He has further provided evidence that Arvanites in general object to being considered Albanian. Acerimusdux 00:27, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

RFC Issue 3

Current text:

* Albanian nationals, including many ethnic Greeks and Greek-identifying Aromanians or Arvanitovlachs in addition to ethnic Albanians, that arrived especially during the 1990s, mostly as illegal immigrants; as many as 500,000, according to the Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs. [4]

There has been disagreement here over the addition of the phrase "including many ethnic Greeks and Greek-identifying Aromanians or Arvanitovlachs". Disagreement seems to be over what percentage of these immigrants, if any, ought to be labeled "ethnic Greeks", and over whether this phrase implies that all or most Aromanians coming from Albania identify as Greek, but not Albanian. There also has been some dispute of the accuracy of the "mostly as illegal immigrants" addition. Acerimusdux 00:27, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Our Official Report on MIgration Statistics in Greece, for the Ministry of Interior

It seems that you are using very old and unreliable data on Albanian migrants residing in Greece. The Mediterranean Migration Observatory has prepared the only systematic data evaluation, which was published in February 2005 and is available from http://www.mmo.gr .

THe number of "ethnic Greek" Albanians with special "homogeneis" permits is unofficially estimated at 200.000 persons; however, the Ministry of Public Order refuses to provide data. THe number of Albanians granted residence permits over the period 2003-4 is approximately 420.000, to which should be added Albanian schoolchildren, counted at 70.000. Putting the three categories together [which the Greek state does not accept, as a clear distinction is demanded between allogeneis and homogeneis], one can deduce an estimated total of some 700.000 persons originating from Albania and with documented status. I do not believe that there is a significant number of illegal Albanian immigrants residing in Greece in 2005: the main source of illegality derives from problems of renewal of legal status.

MARTIN BALDWIN-EDWARDS Co-Director, Mediterranean Migration Observatory, Panteion University, Athens

5 million Turkish citizens of albanian descent ?

Turkey not only sees the Balkans as its backyard, but is itself home to an estimated 5 million ethnic Albanians. According to sociologist Nukhet Sirman of the Bosphorous University in Istanbul, many Turks are only now beginning to discover their Balkan roots. Here's the article http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1998/11/98/crossing_continents/374751.stm

Your thoughts on this ?

Explanation

Ladies and Gentlemen,
I have made various edits to this article due to the fact that certain entries are inaccurate. To be more specific, Arvanitic and Arbëresh (or as called by the UN Arvanitika Albanian and Arbëreshë Albanian respectively) are classed linguistically as a dialects/varieties of Tosk Albanian. This position is endorsed by the UNESCO RED BOOK ON ENDANGERED LANGUAGES: EUROPE (see entries for Arvanitic and Arbëresh respectively). There is no proof that these languages are separate languages as the articles previously stated and Wikipedia policy (Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability) requires that the truth be entered on articles (the truth being that these languages are dialects/varieties of Tosk Albanian). If anybody reverts these edits without providing evidence that they were justified in doing so he/she will have commited vandalism and will have violated Wikipedia policy. If anybody chooses to vandalise the article and violate Wikipedia policy they will be reported.
Regards,
REX 23:56, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually it's in the forthcoming UNESCO Black book on Dead Languages as well, which comes with a CD featuring Modest Mussorgsky's piece (from Pictures at an Exhibition) "Cum mortuis in lingua mortua". Chronographos 21:56, 12 September 2005 (UTC) (no need to translate for such an avid classical music lover as you, I trust)

Κρυάδες! REX 22:47, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Why? Can you at least point out some classical recordings by Albanian composers to me, since you are considered an expert? I would be interested in SACD or DVD-Audio preferably. I hear the stringtone of the Tirana Symphony Orchestra rivals the Wienerphilharmoniker (on a full moon on February 31st), which is why they are the darling of Deutsche Grammophon. I hear that Enver Hoxha was a secret musicologist and had singlehandedly restored Gustav Mahler's unfinished 10th Symphony to its full intended magnificence. The score was discovered recently and it is considered superb! Ain't it so? Chronographos 23:28, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Well actually, the Tirana National Theatre is supposed quite good. Simon Gjoni is a very famous composer. He is even more famous than any of the Greek composers (Mikis Theodorakis Hahahahahahaha! snigger snigger!). Let's talk about Greek Classical music such as the Rebetika. HAHAHAHAHA! REX 23:50, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

How exquisite! What a pity he only performed in communist Prague. And in equally communist China. I am sure billions of Chinese hum his haunting tunes as they happily harvest rice. Has he written a Symphony on rice harvesting by the way? Chronographos 01:45, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, it is well known that the communist east was very cultured. The only problem was the tight state control over the arts (see Shostakovich). Even now the Albanian immigrants who are sdudyying in Greek schools are better students than the Greek ones who sit on the end of their desks picking their noses. That is why a sizable percentage of Greek flags are carried by Albanians on state occasions (Σημαιοφόρος). How interesting! REX 07:53, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Interesting and rewarding. It's like separating the wheat from the chaff. You keep the former and deport the latter. Chronographos 10:07, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Δε θα καταλάβω ποτέ πώς βάζουν τα γυαλιά οι Αλβανοί μαθητές στους Έλληνες μαθητές (έχουμε και Αλβανούς σημαιοφόρούς). Μήπως είναι οι Αλβανοί πιο έξυπνοι από τους Έλληνες; Ναι, αυτό θα είναι! REX 15:14, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Όχι, απλώς πιο φτωχοί. Chronographos 16:03, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Τώρα είναι. Σε μερικά χρόνια όμως... REX 16:43, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Το λαμπρό τους μέλλον είναι προδιαγεγραμμένο: σε 40 χρόνια η Αλβανία θα είναι μία σχετικά εύπορη χώρα και σε 60 θα γίνει δεκτή στην Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση. Chronographos 17:07, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Θα πρέπει να περιμένουμε να δούμε. REX 17:19, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Keep in mind that Albania is a small country and with a strong Italian and Greek influence, therefore its development would be relatively easier than it was in Greece. bogdan | ^Talk 17:43, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

That's right. REX 17:46, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Albanians in Romania

This article gives the figure "20,000", but according to the last census there were only around 500 Albanians. Does anyone has a citation for the "20,000" figure?

I know that in 19th century there was indeed a rather important Albanian community in Romania, perhaphs reaching that figure, but AFAIK, they did not lived in isolated communities (like Jews used to) and got integrated quickly in the Romanian society. bogdan | ^Talk 00:07, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I cannot find any reliable references for that 20,000 figure. All I could find is that 2002 census. Ethnologue, who usually is quite nitpicky over things like that does not have any figures for Albanians in Romania, and we know how much they like to inflate figures. They even say that there are 180,000 Macedonian speakers in Greece! REX 10:46, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

There is a general belief that Serbs have the greatest dieaspora (among European nations). Here I find that there are twenty million Albanians on Earth. Forgive me for not understanding this info, but it seems highly overrestimated to me (with only a little over three million Albanians living in Albania) HolyRomanEmperor 12:43, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Those figures are clearly wrong. It's common knowledge that there are circa six million Albanians on Earth, with just over half living in Albania. About 1.5 million in Kosovo and the rest in other countries such as Serbia - Montenegro, Macedonia, Greece and Italy. REX 13:19, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

=

The table on the right hand side of the article is really quite unacceptable,as it does not seem to have been derived from serious published sources. For example, how can there be 2 million Albanians in Greece? THe absolute maximum of recent Albanian immigrants is about 500.000, plus some 200.000 categorised as ethnic Greeks. Of older migrations, the Arvanites are not self-identified as a minority, are completely integrated into Greek society, and there are no figures on their numbers. So where does this figure of 2 million come from?

There are similar problems with other countries, including Romania, as noted above. The 2002 census gives 520, and the 1992 Census results appear not to be available in that detail but give the smallest ethnic minority (Armenians) as 2.023.

Martin Baldwin-Edwards Mediterranean Migration Observatory, Athens --87.202.20.208 13:59, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Where does 5 million ethnic albanians in Italy come from? There is max 150,000-200,000 in italy. And in America the 2000 census recorded 115,000 albanians not 5 and a half million. Could someone give an official citation for the number of albanians on this earth?