Talk:Aimee Semple McPherson/Archive 1

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Discussion

I de-linked contemporary music because the phrase in the article is supposed to mean "music contemporary to her", like Rudy Vallee and that sort of stuff. I'd be open for a clarification reword though if anyone can think of one. - Hephaestos 23:57, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

How about "jazz-era music"? --Christofurio 20:59, May 18, 2004 (UTC)

Huh??

I think someone has added some debate to the article, that I will attempt to transfer here: Bacl-presby 22:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

"Her mother had been orphaned at an early age, and raised by a couple who worked with the Salvation Army. As a result, Aimee was raised in an atmosphere of strong PENTECOSTAL--216.78.70.84 06:33, 1 August 2006 (UTC) beliefs."

So...is the "Sally Ann" Pentecostal, or is someone making a theological quantum leap??

Angeles Temple

Does this still stand? IF so, can anyone add some details aout it. Also of interest is the state of her movement and her relationship to current preachers such as Benny Hinn , who mentions her from time to time as an inspiration. Lisapollison 19:47, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it still stands in Echo Park across from the lake. BTW, it is Angelus Temple, like the call to prayer, not like the City. Lmonteros (talk) 17:22, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

NPOV

The middle section of this article, "Evangelism and Foursquare Gospel" reads like a religious tract instead of an encyclopedia article. Opusaug 03:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Really??Bacl-presby 20:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
"God continually knocked at the door of her heart..."? Sounds NPOV to me. Did she say this? If so, quote her with a cite. Xlation 18:17, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
A lot of this content is sourced verbatim from http://www.foursquare.org/landing_pages/7,3.html Freedomtech 00:45, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
So....if words like the recently added "...the greatest Christian call..." sounds too rough, edit it out...If the wording from the Foursquare Church site sounds too NPOV, edit it! There is enough documentation on her life (positive, negative, and neutral) to sift through....Bacl-presby 17:12, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

It does indeed. It is an embarrassment to Wiki, despite all the effort that has been put into this rather tedious, long article. McPherson was an important person in cultural history, but the whole article does not treat her as a historical figure, but rather as a religious icon and seems to be aimed at true believers. For example, the writer(s) treat McPherson's visions as actual revelations. Whether they were or not, no historical article can accept that at face value. If we do not keep perspective on a historical figure, we will tend to write lies, exaggerations and distortions. It's a shame that the article is so verbose, as well. I'm disappointed. NaySay (talk) 17:57, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, a historical article should avoid treating a seers visions as actual revelations. If there are phrases of concern, they should be specified for further investigation and possible edits.

PS The length of the article has been previously discussed further below, though since that time two sections have been condensed and their larger contents spun off into separate articles.SteamWiki (talk) 00:54, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Article still seems very slanted in favor of its subject as of May 2016.

The article reflects available sources. Without specifics, vague generalities cannot adequately be addressed. What is the phraseology of concern and the source(s) you are consulting?SteamWiki (talk) 15:10, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Why is there so little about her?

There is so much that should be said about her. For example:

“M. F. McCarthy, special agent for the Southern Pacific Railroad... told the press that preparations for Sister’s return were “more detailed and lavish” than those for the visits of ex-presidents Wilson and Taft and King Albert of Belgium”(Found in Blumhofer's book: Aimee Semple McPherson: Everybody's Sister, page 291).

Or about how many of the Hollywood actresses of the 20s who are still remembered and celebrated would pay good money to get front row seats to watch and learn from Aimee when she would give her illustrated sermons.

Also, the whole thing with riding a motorcycle down the aisle isn't true. She was pretending to be a motorcycle riding traffic cop, but she didn't have a motorcycle.

There was one time when she wanted asked the circus for a parrot to do an illustrated sermon of Eden. As it turned out, the parrot could talk, but would only say one thing: "oh go to hell!" She worked it into her act, preaching to the parrot and telling it to find Jesus.

She was very interesting. And I understand that it can be hard to convey that. But what I don't understand is how big and important she was then, but how little she is known now. No one I know has ever heard of her. I think that Wikipedia should do more to show how big a figure of the 1920s Aimee was.

I should mention that in his autobiography Milton Berle claimed to have had a sexual affair with McPherson, but immediately add that many of Berle's claims about his career are total fantasy, this one among them. It just shows you that in the 1970's she was not taken seriously. Saxophobia 02:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Quotations

Could someone please contact G-d and ask Him to confirm his quotes on this page?

PBS Documentary

There's a documentary on PBS tonight... Bacl-presby 22:24, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

It was nicely done and took a very positive look at her. The opinion is expressed that the "Kidnapping" was a piece of poorly done publicity that hurt her reputation badly, and from which it never completely recovered.Saxophobia 02:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

NPOV

I removed a silly reference to her alleged burial with a telephone. David E. Harrell "All Things are Possible" Indiana University Press 1974 refers to "The Preachers" by James Morris as a popular book with a negative bias. McPherson isn't even one of the nine preachers Morris writes about, so "The Preachers" is inappropirate as a single reference, unsubstantiated elsewhere.Witnessforpeace (talk) 02:45, 24 February 2008 (UTC) Mary Baker Eddy is the usual target of this bit of folklore, here debunked by snopes. Apparently Morris attributed a false rumor to the wrong woman.http://www.snopes.com/horrors/gruesome/phone.asp Witnessforpeace (talk) 02:56, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

More exacting link to the phone rumor: http://www.snopes.com/horrors/gruesome/buried.asp SteamWiki (talk) 20:37, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

NPOV, continued

This allegation only has a single source. Milton Berle has no particular qualifications for him to be cited in this article.Witnessforpeace (talk) 21:08, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

It's very straightforwardly put forth as only his own "claim." The text is wholly sourced to Berle's notable autobiography. Please don't remove sourced content, readers tend to be much smarter than some editors think. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:14, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I've added a balancing quote. But let's discuss this... Here's the case for retention: Only one of three major biographies mentioned Berle's allegation at all, and that one devoted less than one page out of 416. But Wikipedians have discovered the true importance of this allegation, and are insisting that a full 4.8% of the article must be devoted to what Milton Berle claimed more than 40 years after the fact. (See calculations at end) Case for deletion: Even if true, it's original research. Time to delete the section. Here's the case for retention, part II Most people using Wikipedia are looking for dirt on televangelists; we're just giving them what they're most likely to enjoy. Case for deletion: That's the farthest thing from a Neutral Point of View, and a second reason for deletion Pages in Sutton/words in Wiki 0.75 226 Entire book/article 416 4700 Relative importance 0.18% 4.81% Exaggeration of importance by Wiki 26.67

Berle didn't write that as a Wikipedia editor, so it's not WP:OR. Adding quotes and other sources having to do with Berle's claim is helpful. Gwen Gale (talk) 23:17, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

SteamWiki (talk) 21:26, 18 November 2012 (UTC)SteamWikiSteamWiki (talk) 21:26, 18 November 2012 (UTC) Cox, Raymond L. The Verdict is In, 1983 p.241 states of this Milton Berle claim: Mrs. McPherson's daughter, Roberta Salter of New York; told me, "Mother never had an apartment in her life." And by 1931 she kept herself securely chaperoned to guard against such allegations. The year 1930 is one we can trace the evangelist's appearances ad whereabouts almost every day. She was incapacitated with illness a full five months of that year, and there is no place on her schedule as reported in her publications and church and travel records, for any such benefit. Besides, Roberta also told me, "Mother never did a benefit in her life. She had her own charities." SteamWiki (talk) 21:26, 18 November 2012 (UTC)SteamWikiSteamWiki (talk) 21:26, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

(Added) Furthermore, another book by Milton Berle "Laughingly Yours" (contains following items from Milton Berle's repertoire of wit & humor A Book is Born, My Philosophy of Life You can't try an Insane Man, Seven Vaudeville Sketches ETC )containing autobiographical content published during 1939 while McPherson was still alive, does not contain this portrayal. (Cox, p241) SteamWiki (talk) 06:15, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Radio Career

DevorahLeah (talk) 04:09, 15 May 2010 (UTC)The current article contains several factual errors regarding Aimee's radio career. First, there is no question that she was a pioneering radio evangelist. But she was not the first woman to preach a radio sermon (here in Massachusetts, we had a female radio preacher on the air in 1922, and I am sure there were others). The article (which I am about to correct) also attributes other "firsts" to her that are not accurate (she was NOT the first woman to own a radio station-- that "first" belongs to Marie (Mrs. Robert) Zimmerman in 1922. It also asserts that she received a license from the Federal Radio Commission in 1924-- that agency was not created till 1927. She would have received it from the Department of Commerce.

Suggested changes to section "Reported Kidnapping"

References primarily used: The Verdict is In 1983 Raymond L. Cox

(Original text) Kenneth G. Ormiston, the engineer for KFSG, had also disappeared during this time. Some believed McPherson and Ormiston, who was married, had become romantically involved and had run off together. After about a month, McPherson's mother received a ransom note (signed by "The Avengers") which demanded a half million dollars, or else kidnappers would sell McPherson into "white slavery." Kennedy later said she tossed the letter away, believing her daughter was dead.

(Suggested Change text) Kenneth G. Ormiston, the engineer for KFSG, had taken other assignments around January 1926 and left the Temple [Cox Page 37-38]. Newspapers later linked McPherson and Ormiston, the latter seen driving up the coast with an unidentified woman. Some believed McPherson and Ormiston, who was married, had become romantically involved and had run off together. After about a month, McPherson's mother received a ransom note (signed by "The Avengers") which demanded a half million dollars, or else kidnappers would sell McPherson into "white slavery." Kennedy later said she tossed the letter away, believing her daughter was dead.

(reason for change) Ormiston actually left the Temple several months before the McPherson disappearance. The original text makes it seem he left at the same time McPherson disappeared. Moreover, Ormiston presented himself to the police headquarters May 27 to deny he had "went into hiding" he also indicated his name connected to the evangelist was a gross insult to a noble and sincere woman. He gave a detailed description of his movements since May 19. He took other assignments, about two weeks before McPherson's January 11, 1926 trip to Europe [Cox Page 37-38]

(original text) Shortly thereafter, on June 23, McPherson stumbled out of the desert in Agua Prieta, Sonora, a Mexican town across the border from Douglas, Arizona. She claimed she had been kidnapped, drugged, tortured and held for ransom in a shack by a man and a woman, "Steve" and "Mexicali Rose."[17] Her story also claimed she had escaped from her captors and walked through the desert for about 13 hours to freedom.

(Suggested Change text) Shortly thereafter, on June 23, McPherson stumbled out of the desert in Agua Prieta, Sonora, a Mexican town across the border from Douglas, Arizona. The Mexican couple she approached there, thought she died when McPherson collapsed in front of them. An hour later she stirred and the couple covered her with blankets [Cox p. 70]. She claimed she had been kidnapped, drugged, tortured and held for ransom in a shack by a man and a woman, "Steve" and "Mexicali Rose."[17] Her story also claimed she had escaped from her captors and walked through the desert for about 13 hours to freedom.

(reason for change) Gives more detail on the condition she was in when found. Most biographers really do not discuss this in their books.

(original text) Some, however, were skeptical of her story since McPherson seemed in unusually good health for her alleged ordeal, and her clothes showed no signs of a long walk through the desert. A grand jury convened on July 8, 1926, but adjourned 12 days later citing lack of evidence to proceed with any charges.

(Suggested Change text) Some, however, were skeptical of her story since McPherson seemed in unusually good health for her alleged ordeal, and her clothes showed no signs of a long walk through the desert. This was disputed by most Douglas, Arizona residents, the town where McPherson was taken to convalesce, including expert tracker CE Cross, who indicated McPherson's physical condition shoes and clothing were all compatible with an ordeal such as she described[Cox, p 85, 209-211] . A grand jury convened on July 8, 1926, but adjourned 12 days later citing lack of evidence to proceed with any charges.

(reason for change) Gives more attention to the original witnesses who first saw McPherson after her return at Agua Prieta, Sonora. Biographers Daniel Mark Epstein and Edith L Blumhofer have assertions taken from two individuals who doubt McPherson's story, but nothing from the numerous other witnesses who first saw McPherson and whose statements conflicted with these doubters. To emphasize this, and in response to the numerous allegations coming from the news-media in Los Angeles and elsewhere, headed by leading citizens, Mayor A E Hinton of Douglas Arizona, (together with undersigned residents) dispatched to McPherson a testimonial. In it they assert there has been no iota of proof adduced here in Douglas that would in any way attempt to disapprove any of the statements made by Mrs. McPherson regarding her reappearance. As citizens of Douglas in which city she has reappeared, affirm our belief in the statements she has made[Cox Page 129].

(original text) Five witnesses claimed to have seen McPherson at a seaside cottage in Carmel-by-the-Sea, with the cottage being rented by Ormiston under an assumed name. Ormiston admitted to having rented the cottage but claimed that the woman who had been there with him—known in the press as Mrs. X—was not McPherson but another woman with whom he was having an extramarital affair.

(Suggested Change text) Five witnesses claimed to have seen McPherson at a seaside cottage in Carmel-by-the-Sea, with the cottage being rented by Ormiston under an assumed name. The five witnesses of the prosecution made their identifications at 30 to 100 feet or were otherwise problematic. Four other witnesses who were 8-10 feet away and saw her in instances without the driving goggles or hat, agreed the woman was not McPherson. [Cox, p 3, 194, 195, 197] Ormiston admitted to having rented the cottage but claimed that the woman who had been there with him—known in the press as Mrs. X—was not McPherson but another woman with whom he was having an extramarital affair.

(reason for change) Gives more information on why the 5 witnesses were not enough to place McPherson at the scene. This is contrasted by the four other witnesses who were in a better position to see and therefore determine that mystery woman with Ormiston was not McPherson.

The prosecution aided by Joseph Ryan, Deputy District Attorney, obtained the Five Carmel witnesses by first looking for people who at least got a brief glimpse of the woman with Ormiston. Ryan would take a sheath of photographs taken of McPherson, as provided by the newspapers and then show them to the prospective witnesses one photograph at a time. Once the witness finally agreed that a photo resembled the woman with Ormiston, Ryan would have his "identification" that Mcpherson was seen in Carmel, with Ormiston. This photo-stack trick did not work on people who had actually gotten a closer look at the mystery woman, such as the landlord, HC Benedict, who rented the cottage to the couple.

(original text) The grand jury reconvened on August 3 and took further testimony along with documents from hotels, all said to be in McPherson's handwriting. McPherson steadfastly stuck to her story, that she was approached by a young couple at the beach who had asked her to come over and pray for their sick child, and that she was then shoved into a car and drugged with chloroform. When she was not forthcoming with answers regarding her relationship with Ormiston (by then estranged from his wife), the judge charged McPherson and her mother with obstruction of justice. To combat the bad newspaper publicity, McPherson spoke freely about the court trials on the air during her radio broadcasts.

(Suggested Change text) The grand jury reconvened on August 3 and took further testimony along with documents from hotels, all said by various newspapers to be in McPherson's handwriting. These however, were actually Elizabeth Tovey's, a woman traveling Ormiston, whose handwriting did not at all resemble McPherson.[Cox, p.160] McPherson steadfastly stuck to her story, that she was approached by a young couple at the beach who had asked her to come over and pray for their sick child, and that she was then shoved into a car and drugged with chloroform. When he was not satisfied with answers regarding her relationship with Ormiston (by then estranged from his wife), the judge charged McPherson and her mother with obstruction of justice. To combat the bad newspaper publicity, McPherson spoke freely about the court trials on the air during her radio broadcasts.

(reason for change) The numerous hotel register "evidence" was mostly speculation from newspapers. Where registers were actually confiscated, the handwriting did not at all resemble McPherson's. There is nothing I can find that would lead me to believe that McPherson or her mother were not "forthcoming" about "regarding their relationship with Ormiston," since McPherson's previous lengthy statements to Asa Keyes [Cox pp 108-109] suggest otherwise. It would seem "not satisfied" would be more accurate.

Add to suggested reading list: Cox, Raymond L. The Verdict is In, 1983

(reason for addition) Uses court documents, affidavits, articles and other well referenced materials in considerable detail to explore the missing weeks and subsequent events of Aime Semple McPherson in 1926.

SteamWiki (talk) 20:46, 18 November 2012 (UTC)SteamWikiSteamWiki (talk) 20:46, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

(Cleaned up text from) Five witnesses claimed to have seen McPherson at a seaside cottage in Carmel-by-the-Sea, with the cottage being rented by Ormiston under an assumed name. However, these five witnesses of the prosecution made their identifications at 30 to 100 feet or were otherwise problematic. At least four other witnesses, who were 8-10 feet away and saw her in instances without the driving goggles or hat, agreed the woman was not McPherson

(To) Five witnesses claimed to have seen McPherson at a seaside cottage in Carmel-by-the-Sea, with the cottage being rented by Ormiston under an assumed name. However, several other witnesses, including two the prosecution erroneously thought would testify for them, stated the woman was not McPherson.

(reason for change) The descriptive text is too specific; readers can can acquire the Cox and other biographies if more information here is desired. It is enough to indicate witnesses for the Prosecution were displaced by other witnesses at Carmel, including two of their own. SteamWiki (talk) 15:57, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

(Carmel evidence kidnapping addition) The Carmel cottage was further checked for fingerprints but none belonging to McPherson was found. Two grocery slips found in the yard of the cottage were studied by a police hand writing expert and determined to be McPherson's penmanship. While the original slips later mysteriously disappeared from the courtroom, photo-stat copies were available. The defense had a handwriting expert of their own whom demonstrated the grocery slips were not McPherson's but doctored to look like hers. It was also noted the original slips would had to been in the yard for two months, surviving dew, fog and lawn maintenance before their discovery (Cox, p151, 152 )

(Reason for addition) the grocery slips figure prominently in several biographies and movies implying "proof positive" evidence implicating McPherson. The original slips disappearing from the courtroom also give suspicion that someone disposed of them to protect her. However, as Cox noted, photo-stats of the slips were made, survival for two months as litter in a yard plus other discrepancies diminished their use as any sort of reliable evidence. SteamWiki (talk) 16:08, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

(addition) At first Prosecutor District Attorney Asa Keyes and Deputy District Attorney Joseph Ryan seemed empathetic to the story, with Ryan saying he could make the desert trip without scuffing or marking his commissary shoes. (Cox, p68) Then later, McPherson and her mother were instead investigated for a possible deception.

(original) A grand jury convened on July 8, 1926, but adjourned 12 days later citing lack of evidence to proceed with any charges.

(Change to) A grand jury convened on July 8, 1926, but adjourned 12 days later citing lack of evidence to proceed with any charges of perjury by McPherson.

(reason for addition) Underscore the inconsistencies of the prosecution, and that the lack of "excessive wear" on McPherson's shoes, was a non-issue. Also explains more fully why the grand jury convened.

SteamWiki (talk) 18:23, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

(H. L. Mencken addition) He later writes: The trial, indeed, was an orgy typical of the half-fabulous California courts. The very officers of justice denounced her riotously in the Hearst papers while it was in progress,... http://www.ralphmag.org/menckenZN.html --- H. L. Mencken From The American Mercury (1930) Of McPherson he writes: For years she toured the Bible Belt in a Ford, haranguing the morons nightly, under canvas. It was a depressing life, and its usufructs were scarcely more than three meals a day. The town (he refers to Los Angeles) has more morons in it than the whole State of Mississippi, and thousands of them had nothing to do save gape at the movie dignitaries and go to revivals.

(reason for addition) Further clarifies view of H. L. Mencken, an outsider and well known journalist known for his sarcastic wit, has a fresh view when evaluating the situation. In the cite he is rather salty when referring to McPherson's work and her audience. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SteamWiki (talk • contribs) 22:17, 26 November 2012 (UTC) SteamWiki (talk) 22:21, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

(original) A grand jury convened on July 8, 1926, but adjourned 12 days later citing lack of evidence to proceed with any charges of perjury by McPherson.

(change to) A grand jury convened on July 8, 1926, but adjourned 12 days later citing lack of evidence to proceed with any charges against either alleged kidnappers or perjury by McPherson.

(reason) The possible kidnapping of McPherson was also briefly investigated. Prior to 1932, local jurisdictions investigated instances of kidnappings as claimed by victims or families. Raymond L Cox, The Verdict is In, cites some of the difficulties of a victim proving they were kidnapped, the main thing is the kidnappers themselves have to be found, either they confess to the crime or are otherwise identified.

Various defense attorney websites also discuss what is needed to prosecute successfully a case of kidnapping (which require the presence of the alleged kidnapper(s)).

http://www.dmt-law.com/lawyer-attorney-1585748.html http://www.lacriminaldefenseattorney.com/Criminal-Defense/Violent-Crimes/Kidnapping.aspx

Once alleged kidnappers are located it must be proven the victim did not consent and that the defendant intended to move or take the victim even though consent was not given. If the prosecution cannot prove these facts beyond a reasonable doubt, then the defendant is not guilty of kidnapping.

Since, as Cox indicated, the actual kidnappers could not be even located to be charged, at that point McPherson was at a distinct disadvantage in proving she was kidnapped (this is something I may need to find citation for, but I gather even if the desert shack she stated she was held in was investigated, it would only place her at the scene, it would not necessarily follow she was held there against her will). SteamWiki (talk) 18:32, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

paragraph revised to be more easily understood,

The situation being written about is this this:

--Kennedy, during McPherson's disappearance, was fielding many questions about her missing daughter and extensively experienced the unpleasant sensational aspect of speculative news stories. Kennedy intensely disliked the publicity and was cynical of the outcome, should her daughter decide to bring the matter into court. If McPherson forgave the kidnappers , there would have been more speculation, but it would probably be quickly displaced by some other news event that captured the media's attention. (Epstein, p. 303).

--Though McHperson was aware of sensationalist media speculating on her whereabouts there was little reason for her to expect more of the same from the courts. Earlier, while convalescing in Douglas, Arizona, McPherson was interrogated by Prosecutor District Attorney Asa Keyes and Deputy District Attorney Joseph Ryan. Both seemed empathetic to McPherson's story with Ryan stating he could make the desert trip without scuffing or marking his commissary shoes. (Cox, p. 68) The grand jury inquiry was to determine evidence for charging kidnappers. She voluntarily presented herself at the grand jury inquiry as a victim of a crime seeking redress.

--Biographers note certain of the Los Angeles religious, political and business community were very interested in the disappearance being investigated as something other than a kidnapping. While a few police looked for kidnappers, far more to include at least a couple hundred reporters were looking for evidence of a fraud. Hence, back in Los Angeles, Keyes and Ryan did not open the grand jury inquiry about her kidnapping, but instead with questions wrongly implying she cut short revival meetings because she was "run out town," then about her financial and personal life. They were looking to establish a pattern of McPherson's fraudulent behavior during her traveling revivals, which they could not, then, along with other things tried to look for a motive that involved the pair making money from the disappearance.

So it is squeezed down into this

Her mother, Mildred Kennedy was very cynical of the increased newspaper scrutiny and McPherson had the option to forgive the alleged kidnappers and let the matter drop.^[1] Earlier, when McPherson was interrogated in Douglas, Arizona by Prosecutor District Attorney Asa Keyes and Deputy District Attorney Joseph Ryan, both seemed empathetic to her story. Ryan said he could make the desert trip without scuffing or marking his commissary shoes.^[2] McPherson therefore presented herself in court as a victim of a crime seeking redress. Pressured by various influential Los Angeles business, media, political and religious interests ^[3] Keyes and Ryan instead opened the grand jury inquiry with insinuating questions, implying McPherson and her mother were involved in a deception. SteamWiki (talk) 19:50, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Edit of removed "biased info" phrase Among the things the authors were conveying (refer to cited works, Epstein, p. 301, Sutton, pp. 120–122 ) especially Sutton, according to journalists and writers he refers to, McPherson was a significant influential political force, one that supported the Creationist view over the the Evolutionist side in the Scopes trial, a popular position with many Southern Californians but not the local intelligentsia who in turn prodded and helped shape civic policy. Business leaders were trying to portray the city as an avant garde town, progressive, and McPherson helped put a proposition on the upcoming ballot requiring the Bible be placed in all public schools--a calculated response to the evolution controversy. The Argonaut a newspaper, warned her actions made her a threat to the entire state which could place them on intellectual parity with Mississippi and Tennessee. This is also addressed in note cite currently #159

Since it is not possible to know if all these persons were actually against her, the phrase was edited slightly to not be so inclusive. "Already incensed over McPherson's influential public stance on evolution and the Bible, most of the Chamber of Commerce, and other civic leaders, however, saw the event as gaudy display, nationally embarrassing to the city. " SteamWiki (talk) 06:21, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

References

^ Epstein, p. 303
^ Cox, p. 68
^ Sutton, pp. 120–122

Later life and career additions

(Original text) Following her heyday in the 1920s, McPherson carried on with her ministry but fell out of favor with the press. She became caught up in power struggles for the church with her mother and daughter and suffered a nervous breakdown in August 1930.

On September 13, 1931, McPherson married again, to actor and musician David Hutton; the marriage got off to a rocky start. Two days after the wedding, Hutton was sued for breach of promise by ex-girlfriend Hazel St. Pierre, although Hutton claimed he had never met her. He eventually settled the case by paying St. Pierre US$5,000. While McPherson was away in Europe, she was angered to learn Hutton was billing himself as "Aimee's man" in his cabaret singing act. The marriage also caused an uproar within the church: The tenets of Foursquare Gospel, as put forth by McPherson herself, held that one should not remarry while their previous spouse was still alive, as McPherson's second husband still was. McPherson and Hutton separated in 1933 and divorced on March 1, 1934.

Drawing from her childhood experience with the Salvation Army, in 1936 McPherson opened a commissary at Angelus Temple. It was open 24 hours a day, seven days a week and became active in creating soup kitchens, free clinics and other charitable activities as the Great Depression wore on. With the later outbreak of World War II, McPherson became involved in war bond rallies, complete with sermons that linked the church and American patriotism.[27]

(changed to)

Following her heyday in the 1920s, McPherson carried on with her ministry but fell out of favor with the press. Nevertheless, in drawing from her childhood experience with the Salvation Army, in 1927, McPherson opened a commissary at Angelus Temple. The Commissary was virtually the only place in town a person could get food, clothing, and blankets with no questions asked. When the government shut down the free school lunch program, McPherson took it over. It was open 24 hours a day, seven days a week and became active in creating soup kitchens, free clinics and other charitable activities as the Great Depression wore on. It is estimated that she fed 1.5 million people.

Actor Anthony Quinn recalls:

"This was all during the height of the Depression, when hunger and poverty permeated America. Many Mexicans were terrified of appealing for county help because most of them were in the country illegally. When in distress, they were comforted by the fact that they could call one of Aimee's branches at any time of the night. There, they would never be asked any of the embarrassing questions posed by the authorities. The fact that they were hungry or in need of warm clothing was enough. No one even asked if they belonged to Aimee's church or not." Anthony Quinn, The Original Sin: A Self-Portrait, Little, Brown and Company: Boston (1972), pp 122-132

On July 29, 1927, Mildred Kennedy, McPherson's mother, left the Temple. The two had conflicted heatedly over management policesEpstein, p 325. However, Kennedy's financial and administrative skills had been of crucial importance in growing McPherson's ministry from tent revivals to satellite churches and maintaining its current activities in the Angelus Temple. A series of less able management staff replaced Kennedy and the Temple became involved in various questionable projects such as hotel building, cemetery plots and land sales. Accordingly, the Temple plummeted deep into debt.

Kennedy came back for a time in 1930 but later, because of serious disagreements with McPherson, tended her resignation in JulyEpstein, p 341. McPherson suffered a nervous breakdown in August 1930. On September 13, 1931, McPherson married again, to actor and musician David Hutton; the marriage got off to a rocky start. Two days after the wedding, Hutton was sued for breach of promise by ex-girlfriend Hazel St. Pierre, although Hutton claimed he had never met her. He eventually settled the case by paying St. Pierre US$5,000. While McPherson was away in Europe, she was angered to learn Hutton was billing himself as "Aimee's man" in his cabaret singing act. The marriage also caused an uproar within the church: The tenets of Foursquare Gospel, as put forth by McPherson herself, held that one should not remarry while their previous spouse was still alive, as McPherson's second husband still was. McPherson and Hutton separated in 1933 and divorced on March 1, 1934.

McPherson reassigned staff responsibilities in an effort to address the Temple's financial difficulties. This together with simmering tensions among various staff members accelerated considerably in 1936. Rumors circulated that "Angel of Broadway," charismatic evangelist Rheba Crawford Splivalo, who was working extensively with McPherson for several years, planned to take the Angelus Temple from her. McPherson asked Splivalo to "leave town." Epstein, p. 368 McPherson's lawyer issued a strongly worded press release that compelled Semple to initiate a $150,000 lawsuit against him for slander. Splivalo, filed one of her own for $1,080,000 against McPherson for alleged statements calling her a ‘Jezebel and a Judas’ and "unfit to stand in the Angelus Temple pulpit."Herald-Journal - May 11, 1937

McPherson's defense of her lawyer in a public trial was dramatic and theatrical; testifying tearfully with swoons and faints how her daughter conspired with others against herUnited Press, April 15, 1937. The trial did much to estrange McPherson from daughter and is often used as an example of how McPherson could endear herself to large, cheering crowds, but had difficulty in forming close, lasting, personal relationships. The judge ruled and Semple received a $2000 judgment. She moved to New York. Splivalo and the Temple settled their suit out of court for the cause of religion and the good of the community.Epstein, p 416

With Kennedy, Semple, Splivalo and others gone, the Temple lost much of its talented leadership. However, McPherson found a competent and firm administrator in Giles Knight, who was able to bring the Temple out of debt, dispose of the 40 or so lawsuits and eliminated the more spurious projects. He sequestered McPherson, allowing her only to receive few personal visitors, and guardedly regulated her activities outside the Temple. McPherson, who previously blared across newspaper headlines as many as 3 times a week, regarding one alleged scandal or another, had her public image much improved. Her adversary, Reverend Robert P. Schuler, who previously attacked her by radio, magazine, pulpit and pamphlet; proclaimed "Aimee's missionary work was the envy of Methodists."Epstein, p 427

With the outbreak of World War II, McPherson rejected the Christian pacifism of many in the Pentecostal movement. She insulted both Hitler and Tojo, became involved in war bond rallies, selling $150,000 worth of bonds in one hour. The U.S. Treasury awarded her a special citation. She spoke to the men in uniform of her belief that military action against the Axis powers was long overdue. The Army made McPherson an honorary colonel. Her wartime activities were complete with sermons that linked the church and American patriotism.[27]

(reason for change) Expanded the section regarding the power struggles within her church which resulted in estrangement from both her mother Mildred Kennedy, daughter Roberta Semple, and evangelist Rheba Crawford Splivalo. All these individuals were important in developing the ministry at the Angelus Temple and personally important to McPherson. --Mother Kennedy was instrumental in getting McPherson's ministry financially viable and --Daughter Semple was being groomed as a possible successor (a position given to Rolf McPherson) --evangelist Splivalo was a successful evangelist in her own right earning a reputation in New York as the "Angel of Broadway," for her social work through the Salvation Army there. Her employment with McPherson has been described in many ways as a partnership which led to later false allegations by some she plotted to take over the Temple. Though Splivalo's adversarial style of preaching was often in opposition to McPherson's own conciliatory sermons, McPherson saw qualities in Splivalo she liked.

Giles Knight is added because that section helps explain her comeback from the "get rich quick" schemes, marriage to Hutton and 1936 slander lawsuit scandal era and introduces and unexpected complement by former fierce opponent Reverend Robert P. Schuler ( I cannot put my on the reference, but if I recall correctly, he later became friendly to the McPherson ministries and even spoke at her temple).

Wartime section expanded further to give more details of her public involvement and governmental recognition. SteamWiki (talk) 05:14, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

(added to later career section) Her efforts at making interracial revival a reality at Angelus Temple continued. She welcomed blacks into the congratulation and pulpit. While race riots burned Detroit in 1943, McPherson publicly converted the notorious black former heavyweight champion Jack Johnson on the Temple stage, and embraced him “as he raised his hand in worship.” http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2007/04/30/070430crbo_books_updike --which itself is derived from Sutton, Matthew. Aimee Semple McPherson and the Resurrection of Christian America. London: Harvard University Press, 2007

(reason for addition) A bit more detail on her efforts of integration, important since at that time the United States had various policies of official racial segregation, supported by some fundamentalist white Protestants.

SteamWiki (talk) 20:27, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

(Added sentence to Semple and Splivalo lawsuit section) Kennedy, McPherson's mother, was also was present and sided with Semple, her granddaughter. Semple's lawyer, meanwhile, mocked McPherson by imitating her mannerisms and made faces at her. (Epstein p.413-414)

(reason for addition) Give the reader some idea of the poisonous family drama that was occurring at this time

added "Temple takeover plot" from "takeover plot"

(Changed sentence ) The trial did much to estrange McPherson from daughter. (To) The trial did much to estrange McPherson from her daughter

(Changed) The following month, in August 1930, McPherson suffered a nervous breakdown. (to) The following month, in August 1930, McPherson suffered a physical and nervous breakdown. For ten months she was absent from the pulpit, diagnosed, in part with acute acidosis. (Epstein p. 343)

(Reason for change) Was not strictly a nervous breakdown

(added) When she gained strength and returned, it was with renewed vigor that she introduced her moving "Attar of Roses" sermon, based on the Song of Solomon, with its Rose of Charon as the mystical Body of Christ. While journalists attending her Sunday illustrated sermons assumed her language was fit only for slapstick and or sentimental entertainment, scholars who have studied her work for Bible students and small prayer groups, found instead the complex discourse of neoplatonic interpretation. The Old Testament book, the Song of Solomon, for example, she had hundreds of pages written about it, each "different from one another as snowflakes."(Epstein p. 356)

(reason for change) Her Atter of Roses sermons were quite well known and elaborate.

SteamWiki (talk) 11:24, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

(Added to David Hutton paragraph) McPherson later publicly repented of the marriage, as wrong from the beginning, for both theological(Blumhofer p. 333. Note: in In 1932, after having to continuously answer questions about McPherson's marriage to David Hutton, 33 Foursquare ministers thought this was too much of a distraction and seceded from the Temple and formed their own Pentecostal denomination, the Open Bible Evangelistic Association.) and personal reasons(Epstein p. 434)and therefore rejected other, more appropriate suitors when they asked for her hand.(Blumhofer p. 333)

(reason for inclusion) Gives a bit more depth on this troublesome marriage as together with its divorce; it affected her professionally. In one of her sermons I obtained and listened to, she mentions something like (not an exact quote) "as many times as I have been married, I only spent a total of 4 1/2 years with my husbands." SteamWiki (talk) 19:06, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

(Added text) In 1931 McPherson embarked on a worldwide six month discovery tour to examine the social religious and economic climates of many countries. At one point, it was reported she was on her way to India for the purpose of studying the women's movement in connection with the campaign for Independence, and was anxious to have "a chat with Mahatma Gandhi...." (http://newspapers.nl.sg/Digitised/Article.aspx?articleid=straitstimes19310302.2.46 The Straits Times, 2 March 1931, Page 11 Aimee McPherson in Singapore)

McPherson was deeply impressed with Gandhi. She thought he might secretly lean towards Christianity; his dedication possibly coming from catching "a glimpse of the cleansing, lifting, strengthening power of the Nazarene." (Sutton p.233)

(reason for addition) An example of McPherson's ability meet and converse with well known and respected people of varying international cultures and her own somewhat unconventional perceptions. SteamWiki (talk) 23:26, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Edits to Career section

(original) In 1916, McPherson embarked on a tour of the Southern United States in her "Gospel Car" with her mother Mildred.

(change to) In 1916, McPherson embarked on a tour of the Southern United States in her "Gospel Car" with first her husband Harold and later, in 1918, her mother, Mildred Kennedy. She was an important addition to McPherson's ministry and managed everything, including the money, which gave them an unprecedented degree of financial security.

(reason) Clarified the chronology. Added a bit more on Mildred Kennedy, her mother. Epstein, Blumhofer, and other biographers consider her an important asset, one without as Epstein quipped, McPherson might have remained a tent revival queen. SteamWiki (talk) 18:17, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

(Added) Her faith-healing abilities were impressive and gained her unexpected allies. When she healed a Serbian Romani(gypsy) tribe king and his mother, thousands of others came to her as well in caravans from all over the country and were converted. The infusion of crosses and other symbols of Christianity alongside Romani astrology charts and crystal balls were the result of McPherson's influence. (Epstein p. 239) Prizing gold and loyalty, the Romani repaid her in part, with heavy bags of gold coin and jewels which helped fund the construction of the new Angelus Temple. (Epstein p. 241) In Wichita, Kansas in May 29, 1922, where heavy perennial thunderstorms threatened to rain out the thousands who gathered there, McPherson interrupted the speaker, raised her hand to the sky and prayed, "...let it fall(the rain) after the message has been delivered to these hungry souls." The rain immediately stopped, an event reported the following day by the Wichita Eagle on May 30th: Evangelist's Prayers Hold Big Rain Back," (Blumhofer p. 184) For the gathered Romani, it was a further acknowledgement "of the woman's power." (Epstein p.240)

(reason for addition) Possibly one of the single best documented incidences that gives the reader an example of why she was so revered and also of the more atypical groups which attached themselves to her cause that, according to Epstein, bears her influence even to this day. Since the Romani seem well versed in "slight of hand," their mention in the paragraph plus giving up their gold adds a legitimacy to McPherson's faith-healing abilities. Both Epstein and Blumhofer use the word "gypsy" but bowing to the "Romani" wikipedia article and its talk page reasons for not using that term, it has been substituted instead with "Romani" the exception of the parenthesised "gypsy" to help readers unfamiliar with the preferred designator. Finally this incident was just before the completed construction of the Angelus Temple, was part of the tour she did to help raise money for it and helps introduce the next section. SteamWiki (talk) 19:18, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

(citation added to further document McPherson's faith healing abilities) Sutton p.19-20. Note: Around 1921, a survey was sent out by First Baptist Church Pastor William Keeney Towner in San Jose California, to 3300 people investigating McPherson's healing services. 2500 persons responded. 6% indicated they where immediately and completely healed while 85% indicated they were partially healed and continued to improve ever since. Fewer than half of 1% did not feel they were at least spiritually uplifted and had their faith strengthened. SteamWiki (talk) 19:55, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

(original text) When she claimed to heal a Romani (gypsy) tribe king and his mother, thousands of others came to her as well in caravans from all over the country and were converted.

(Changed to) When a Romani (gypsy) tribe king and his mother stated they were faith-healed by McPherson, thousands of others came to her as well in caravans from all over the country and were converted.

(reason for change) Biographers Epstein and Blumhofer convey the Romani gypsy king and his mother, as well as others of their number, themselves indicated they were healed by McPherson.

Better reflects accuracy of the claim origin of the faith-healing of the affected Romani. SteamWiki (talk) 21:44, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

(citation added to further document McPherson's faith healing abilities, a separate section can be added on this alone. Sutton is brief but gives a well informed summary; Epstein devotes considerable space to it and to a lesser extent Blumhofer.)

Sutton p. 17. Note: Denver Post reporter Frances Wayne writes while McPherson's "attack" on sin "uncultured,...the deaf heard, the blind saw, the paralytic walked, the palsied became calm, before the eyes of as many people that could be packed into the largest church auditorium in Denver."

Next year, McPherson returned and asked about people who have claimed healings from the previous visit. Seventeen people, some well known members of the community, testified, giving credence to McPherson's claim "healing still occurred among modern Christians."

McPherson herself disliked being given credit for the healings, stating "the power of Christ works the cure." SteamWiki (talk) 02:09, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Clarification to Early Life

(original) While still in high school, McPherson began a crusade against the concept of evolution, beginning a lifelong passion.

(added) after her Pentecostal conversion

(now reads) While still in high school, after her Pentecostal conversion, McPherson began a crusade against the concept of evolution, beginning a lifelong passion.

(reason for insertion) Phrase that briefly clarifies when/ why the turnabout took place. Raised Methodist with Salvation Army influence, she nevertheless was questioning her faith and the existence of God because of Evolution and other theories that were beginning to circulate at the time. Her Pentecostal conversion changed that though it was not until later she articulated an intellectual response to the very same questions she raised as an "atheist" when she debated atheists such Charles Lee Smith. SteamWiki (talk) 17:00, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Comment on "The Verdict is In" by Raymond L. Cox

A book that has been extensively cited over the last month, especially in the "Reported kidnapping" section, is "The Verdict is In" by Raymond L. Cox. The book was apparently self-published, and Cox was apparently a lifelong member and evangelist for the Foursquare Church. His web site is here. Given that background, the book is unlikely to represent an entirely objective source, and probably shouldn't be relied on so heavily. WolfmanSF (talk) 06:34, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, there is a general note of caution when dealing with biographical sources and especially so for any party of vested interest. Reading numbers of biographies is very helpful, especially for a person like Aimee Semple McPherson. Epstein writes extensively on the faith healing aspect (large amounts of the book almost could be citations to that), Blumhofer, a more personal view of some of the personages surrounding McPherson, while Sutton takes a long look on her national influence. There is a lot of overlap and all contradict / conflict each other slightly in various ways, none too seriously, however.

The Verdict is In by Raymond L Cox is an earlier book. None of the three later biographers (Blumhofer, Epstein, and Sutton) discredit it and Epstein acknowledges as well documented. It is written primarily about McPherson's 5 week disappearance and aftermath and in a very detailed way.

Cox, along with other documents references the 3500 or so pages of the court transcripts, and gives the relevant testimony. Blumhofer, Epstein, and Sutton do not really address details of the kidnapping and subsequent witness testimonials, except in a very generalized fashion.

For example Epstein writes LA Police Captain Cline learned seemingly unfavorable things about McPherson regarding her condition when she was found in the desert.

We don't know who Captain Cline talked to before he came to his conclusions, Epstein does not say. Cox writes that Captain Cline also got himself demoted and kicked off the case for a drunk driving accident, and he was later in the papers two more times for similar accidents. This as an officer of the law in the era of prohibition when alcohol consumption was illegal. While this in and of itself may not be relevant, that is some background on Captain Cline not noted by the other biographers. Cox reviews what numbers of witnesses themselves have related (which heavily contradict what Cline supposedly learned).

Each biographer, though acknowledges the prejudice of many of the newspapers of the time against McPherson which may be a good example of "Trial by Media." SteamWiki (talk) 19:57, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

I haven't his book, but my impression is that Cox accepts at face value all facts/allegations/testimony that would tend to exonerate McPherson, even when they are implausible and/or obviously self-serving, and challenges virtually all that would tend to incriminate her. That is why I view him as biased. WolfmanSF (talk) 04:14, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

I should like to read Cox's other books to see tendencies he has in comparison to other authors on the same subject. I really do not find him more or less biased in this particular instance than any other author, only more informed. If there is a specific issue, I cannot find it.

With author Lately, one does have problems. Because his works are researched largely from newspaper clippings(Blumhofer made a note of this in her book), it is known for certain much information was implausible and self serving -- for the newspapers of the day. Most authors editorialize, and last night I was going over a section where author Blumhofer hammers author Epstein on some points, for example, which indicates his erroneous information which I never would have known otherwise. Blumhofer, in regards to the kidnapping acknowledges inconsistencies in McPherson's story and more so in the prosecution but does not explain what these "inconsistencies" are, so that we might further explore them. At this time, I cannot locate any book that deals as comprehensively and factually with McPherson's five missing weeks and its aftermath investigation other than Cox's work. While for some persons, one biographical work may be enough, on Aimee Semple McPherson, one book just does not suffice. SteamWiki (talk) 18:18, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Been meaning to add this for awhile. Cox appears to be accurate. I've been confirming him in part from other authors and also from various newspapers, adding those cites as discovered. He primarily corrects Lately Thomas' work about her 1926 kidnapping. Thomas is the "go to" secondary source for many biographers, however it does contain important omissions. For example, he writes the husband (R. R. Gonzales) of the Mexican couple who found McPherson was interviewed by a reporter regarding her story. Gonzales conveyed of McPherson "the lady is a liar." This might have been what that particular reporter understood and wrote, I have not been able to locate the original news article Thomas may have gotten it from.

However what I did locate what was represented to be an affidavit from R. R. Gonzales. This affidavit in no way supports the contention conveyed by Thomas of McPherson's duplicity, but in fact supported her story. The Mexican couple testified on behalf of the defense at the 1926 inquiry in October. This is omitted by Thomas. The couple describe an excited, confused woman looking for a police station who they initially thought was dead after she collapsed in their yard.

The affidavit is inserted in an newspaper "info" ad produced by the Foursquare Gospel Church. While the ad has editorial material, the value of it is the affidavits and other facts it conveys :

An affidavit from GW Cook Police officer is included as well describing McPherson's condition as he found her. Also printed is the testimonial signed from the twenty + representative citizens of Douglas, AZ, beginning with the mayor expressing their confidence in the statements she has made (referred to by Cox in his book).

Faith healing section added.

(reason added) Biographical Author Daniel Mark Epstein explores extensively the claims of Aimee Semple McPherson's faith healing demonstrations with many examples. To a lesser extent this is followed by authors Matthew Avery Sutton, and Edith Waldvogel Blumhofer. Since among previous and contemporary "peers," she has no equal in this category, as Epstein notes "No one has ever been credited by secular witnesses with anywhere near the numbers of faith healings attributed to McPherson, especially during the years 1919 to 1922, " a separate section seems warranted. Added it just before the Angelus Temple section, since prior to its construction, is when the most faith healing sessions appeared to have taken place. SteamWiki (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:00, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Citations for conversion of era year dollars to 2012 dollars

Added citations for conversion of the appropriate era year dollars to 2012 dollars. (Reason for addition) One US dollar seems inconsequential in 2012, however in the 1920's and 30's it has the buying power of about $11-13 dollars. The value difference, if known, might be more helpful in readers to understand the context of some of the dollar amounts mentioned in the article, both for the collection plate and elsewhere. For example, the judge's sue money award of $2000 to Roberta Star Semple may not seem like much, but when its worth is calculated at 2012 dollars we get US $31,000 dollars; a year's salary for many people. If awarded the full amount she asked for, in 1937, $US 150,000 would be equivalent to 2.3 million dollars in 2012.

I'm not sure if that amount would be coming out of the hide of the lawyer she sued or it would be the Temple's responsibility to pay. If the latter was the case, while $150,000 demanded by her daughter is a lot in 2012, the adjusted inflationary amount of 2.3 million is outrageous and its easy to see why McPherson might have been swooning and fainting as the newspaper article stated. While I cannot find any references stating how unfair the dollar amounts might be save McPherson was concerned the lawsuits would bring the Temple under the control of creditors, documenting the 2012 dollar amounts in citations with the earlier citaion giving links to the calculator websites, should be useful in pondering that possibility. SteamWiki (talk) 07:36, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Expanded section on "Charitable work."

Added expanded section on "Charitable work." McPherson's contribution in this area especially during the depression years has been tremendously significant considering that a few years earlier she was living out of a car and to what other agencies were doing at the time. Though I decline taking random unconfirmed quotes from the Internet regarding matters, the 2010 note about the bag of vegetables from "Anonymous" taken from McPherson's virtual gravesite has the ring of sincere truth about it. We know that her organization helped many hundreds of thousands of people, feeding perhaps as many as 1.5 million persons. Within that context, the claimed story about a grandfather whose hungry family meet McPherson herself and received food and some money and later related it to his grandchild is entirely plausible.

From what I gather, though my research in that area is by no means complete, the Commissary still exists today at the Angelus Temple, as well as are a part of many of their satellite churches, an enduring legacy.

SteamWiki (talk) 18:04, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

External links removed

Jackie Miller, curator of Aimee Semple McPhersen's Parsonage and Heritage Center, interviewed for the You Can't Eat The Sunshine podcast (2013).
Elaine, caretaker of Aimee Semple McPhersen's Lake Elsinore "castle" interviewed for the You Can't Eat The Sunshine podcast (2013).
Photo tour of Aimee Semple McPhersen's Lake Elsinore "castle".

Any reason these links were are removed? Though I have yet to listen to the podcast, I thought the photo tour was rather interesting and informative. SteamWiki (talk) 21:15, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

These links were added by a user who appears to be using Wikipedia to promote the website and business they link to. There is a lot of interesting material all over the web, youtube, blogs, and more. But Wikipedia is only encyclopedia articles created from reliable sources. It is not a collection of links, and advertising on Wikipedia is removed. -AfadsBad (talk) 22:08, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

thank you for that explanation. How about keeping the one link

Photo tour of Aimee Semple McPhersen's Lake Elsinore "castle".

The story does not seem skewed nor does there appear to be much advertising, that page is quite content heavy profusely illustrating the building.

SteamWiki (talk) 01:57, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

If the site is not reliable, within policy, we can't decide part ofbit is. It has to have established reliability, not Wikipedia editors pick and choose that some is reliable, the rest is not. This is a good Wikipedia policy, it keeps us away from original research and personal opinion. -AfadsBad (talk) 02:14, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, I may use a sentence from the site just for a cite to further support yet another cite as to the eventual disposal of the residence by McPherson. Biographer Latley states it was sold to dispose of Angelus Temple debt. Thomas Latley researched the bulk of his information from newspapers which were quite frequently hostile to the evangelist. In an interview with caretaker Elaine, of the The Rock congregation in Anaheim, (custodians of Aimee Semple McPherson's Lake Elsinore retreat) conveyed "After a few years, Sister Aimee sold her Castle and used the proceeds to feed the people of Los Angeles." Both viewpoints agree since without removing the debt, the Angelus Temple commissary handing out the provisions would eventually become insolvent.SteamWiki (talk) 14:54, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

i discourage using anything from the site, particularly in an article of this nature. You have been working hard on this article, and the best thing you can do is follow Wikipedia's best policies here, use only reliable sources to build and maintain a neutral article that is a source of information for the reader. Citing non-reliable sources will always open a door to degrading an article on a tricky topic, particularly adding a source that has been introduced to Wikipedia as advertising. It will not work. But, if the information is reliable, that site will have gotten it from a reliable source, and that is what could be added to this article. -AfadsBad (talk) 17:14, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

I at last had a chance to review more closely the podcasts. While interesting material is there, such as the fact McPherson owned a tiger, a fox and a monkey (the monkey was kept in a cage in the kitchen and from time to time escaped causing great commotion, was mentioned in both her sermons and by some biographers) and more about her friendship with Charlie Chaplin; there was a lot to wade through to get it . Not ads exactly that I have been able to discern, but just a lot of unrelated material.

Those interviewed were from the Foursquare Gospel Church, their reliability not contradicting what her later biographers wrote about her. In fact, the curator of the Parsonage placed greater emphasis on Chaplin's instructional contribution to McPherson's illustrated sermons than her print book biographers did. Intriguing as this information is, at this time, its probably not be needed for this article or could be sourced elsewhere as well. Thank you for you insights and kind words. SteamWiki (talk) 17:56, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Too much detail

I appreciate all the work that everyone's put into this article to add so many details into McPherson's life but this article is way too long. These entries are supposed to be easily readable, giving people a lot of information in a short space. This article goes into far too much detail over too many paragraphs (and possibly sections, too). Readers should being able to spend a few minutes reading the salient details of her life or a particular aspect of it but, just as an example, the section on her purported kidnapping and subsequent trials runs for more than 20 paragraphs, 5 pages in Word and 2,500 words! That's at least four times longer than it probably should be to cover the important parts because it goes into unnecessary details such as a Pete Seeger song referring to the case and a later examination by lawyers in their spare time. If people want to read more about it in more depth they can then follow the external links or go to the library. This just means that people aren't likely to bother reading the article at all. 91.182.101.50 (talk) 15:37, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree. I had not known this minister killed herself until recently, and came here to review her life (I read her book years ago) but this WALL OF TEXT article is daunting. I'm not reading it. I suspect most of the contributors are 'fellow travelers' who want to promote their faith, so I guess that's why the article's so overboard. Codenamemary (talk) 19:26, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the article is lengthy, and more informative, certainly, from what it was in the beginning. Easily 6 books need to be read, lots of articles gone through to touch upon all that is here. It is always good to review for improvements.

Of the specific examples mentioned, occasionally, old cases are poorly executed or violate other procedures that compromises the integrity of their judgment. To have the case looked at by something such as the Court of Historical Appeal, while not an official arm of a judiciary, it helpful to know, the findings of the earlier 1920's era courts regarding the lack of evidence against McPherson, continues to hold up under even modern day examinations.

The references to Pete Seeger indicate another side however, widespread belief of her "certain guilt."

The thought on " this minister killed herself," underscores possibly telling too little which gives the idea she took the pills with intent of ending her life, to a more in-depth, possibly too lengthy explanation of mitigating health problems and doctors who could not answer her concern in time when she phoned them.

Checking page stats, though, there seems to be no discernible trending web page view drops, roughly the same over the years, with expected variances and significant upward spikes on certain days. Websites elsewhere on the Internet have referenced parts of the added material into their own productions (ie smithsonianmag.com)so this article does seem useful to them.

SteamWiki (talk) 21:30, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Discussion on the lead:

The lead is back to more like it was before the recent edits:

--Reference to Her extensive charity work was removed. This was put back in. This was important, since during that era few active end time preaching Protestant churches were involved in that type of work . Judith Robinson in her epilogue (Working Miracles, the Drama and Passion of Aimee Semple McPherson) states "Aimee Semple McPherson’s interdenominational legacy led to the breaking down of the barriers between Christian groups. Her emphasis on love and charity helped to direct Christian churches in North America toward an emphasis on social justice and restoration." Sutton says essentially the same thing so something referencing that should stay in the lead. --Too much emphasis on the kidnapping. There is also the highly publicized conflicts with her mother and later her daughter. Her failed third marriage caused a loss of capital with many of her allied churches. Additionally there were the lawsuits(most notably Rheba Crawford) and trouble with defecting member churches and fired staff .

The sentences to rope this all in reads:

"Her news coverage, which sensationalized difficulties with family and church members; along with a mysterious five-week disappearance, were turned into national spectacles. McPherson's extensive charity work and ecumenical contributions were a major influence to revitalization of American Evangelical Christianity in the 20th century."

The term Evangelical" seems a bit restrictive since it seemed, according to sources (especially Sutton) it was so much more. Those references will have to be re-examined and the appropriate paragraphs re-written to better reflect that.

It is described as "mysterious disappearance" about the kidnapping in the lead since it was so controversial. The prosecution would not believe her claim of being kidnapped. They instead contended different theories but could not disprove what she told them concerning her absence. In the meantime, she could not conclusively prove to them and other skeptics her story was true, hence "mysterious."

--If the kidnapping and grand jury inquiry about it is taken as a whole, then more than two people died: blind lawyer and a couple others in a car accident (whose loss was a blow to the defense supporting her story since the blind lawyer claimed contact with the kidnappers), as well as another person listed in the charges along with McPherson, her mother, Ormiston and several others. When this person learned of the charges, suicide was committed. I shall find this reference from Thomas' "Vanishing Evangelist" and put it here. Two persons lost are already indicated in the "Reported kidnapping" portion of the article. ( FYI the cited Smithsonian article references this Wikipedia article along with its other sources.) SteamWiki (talk) 22:56, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Image captions

Even allowing for the latitude provided by WP:CAPTION, some of the image captions are way too long.--ukexpat (talk) 20:36, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Tag work

>>This article needs additional citations for verification. (November 2014)<<

Some citation work is specified:

"By taking seriously the religious role of women, the magazine contributed to the rising women’s movement.[citation needed]"

"was staged at the Signature Theatre in Arlington, Virginia, in April and May 2007.[citation needed] "

"A play entitled The Wide Open Ocean, a musical vaudeville, was performed at The Actors' Gang theater in Los Angeles. It was written and directed by playwright, director, actor, and educator Laural Meade.[citation needed]"

"Written and directed by the experimental theatre artist Susan Simpson, the play used life-sized wooden puppets, human beings, and fractured and warped video projection.[citation needed]"

For the following tag:

>>This article contains weasel words: vague phrasing that often accompanies biased or unverifiable information. (November 2014)<<

I gather the terms referred to are as follows:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch#Unsupported_attributions

Expressions of doubt ... supposed, apparent, purported, alleged, accused, so-called ...

The article on Jesus for example, describes his miracles without using such terms, ie "Jesus devotes a large portion of his ministry performing miracles, especially healings;" not "Jesus devotes a large portion of his ministry performing alleged miracles, especially purported healings;"

The numerous witnesses who were present and wrote about her faith healing sessions, to include skeptical journalists looking for fraud, relate what they saw, which was consistent with cures and other manifestations of physical healing. Some newspapers, according to Epstein, actually published names and address of some of those who stated they were cured or otherwise healed. I shall work at rewording those sections more appropriately.

[Divine Healing: The Years of Expansion, 1906-1930: Theological Variation in ... By James Robinson

"Hardbitten journalists had cause for concern, not just because healings were occurring more rapidly than they could be recorded, but they could not detect a hoax. Indeed a hoax would be more miraculous than the healings. " p790] SteamWiki (talk) 22:58, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Terms to remove Expressions of doubt ... supposed, apparent, purported, alleged, accused, so-called ...

The sourced authors are not using the words "allegedly," "supposed," "apparent," "purported," etc in conjunction with McPherson's extensively witnessed faith healings. Specific cases of healing healing are documented by her biographers most notably Epstein and Blumhofer. Epstein notes the vast numbers while Blumhofer. includes specific lengthy testimonials. They are in turn agreed on by other such as Sutton, alluded to though less detailed in Latley Thomas accounts, therefore these types of words are going to be removed in the following sections:

Lead:

From She conducted public faith-healing demonstrations before large crowds, allegedly healing tens of thousands of people

To: She conducted public faith-healing demonstrations before large crowds, healing tens of thousands of people

Faith healing ministry:

From: Alleged incidents of miraculous faith healing are sometimes clinically explained

To: Incidents of miraculous faith healing are sometimes clinically explained

From: Her apparently successful first public faith healing session of another person was professedly demonstrated in Corona, Long Island, New York, 1916

To: Her first public faith healing session of another person was demonstrated in Corona, Long Island, New York, 1916

From: McPherson, laid hands upon the crippled woman's head and she allegedly walked out

To: McPherson, laid hands upon the crippled woman's head and she walked out

From: the woman supposedly got up out of her wheelchair and walked. The large gathering responded with thunderous applause

To: the woman got up out of her wheelchair and walked. The large gathering responded with thunderous applause

(the original wording is especially awkward: if she got up out of her wheelchair and the crowd saw it, applauded, papers reported it, and it was photographed, then that must have been what happened. Biographer Epstein interviewed Rolf McPherson who had that photograph mounted and placed on his wall ).

From: Before witnesses and reporters, a goiter allegedly shrank, crutches abandoned, an abscessed arm purportedly returned to normal To: Before witnesses and reporters, a goiter shrank, crutches abandoned, an abscessed arm returned to normal''

From: In later years, other individuals were identified as having the alleged faith healing gift.

To: In later years, other individuals were identified as having the faith healing gift.

If these are acceptable I shall add these edits and remove the "weasel word tag" unless there are other areas (please specify) that need to be re-edited.

SteamWiki (talk) 21:49, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

I think it may be OK to remove the qualifiers from accounts of easy-to-observe eyewitnessed events like someone walking across a stage. Observing a goiter shrink is not so easy and I think it might be better to leave the qualifier in for that kind of account. In general, I think it would be wise to leave the qualifiers in for descriptions of healings as being miraculous. The only way to demonstrate that a healing is supernatural is to demonstrate that no natural process could have caused it. That means proving a negative, which in practical terms is virtually impossible. I also think it may be justified to use more guarded language in talking about relatively recent events as opposed to events from biblical times. WolfmanSF (talk) 03:20, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps making it more obvious that witnesses and participants are the ones making the statements of healing (especially the "goiter" type incidents)?

With this in mind, suggested changes:

-----------

Lead:

She conducted public faith-healing demonstrations before large crowds; testimonies conveyed tens of thousands of people healed.

Faith healing ministry:

Described incidents of miraculous faith healing are sometimes clinically explained

Her stated successful first public faith healing session of another person was demonstrated in Corona, Long Island, New York, 1916

McPherson, laid hands upon the crippled woman's head and witnesses looked on as she walked out

the woman got up out of her wheelchair and walked. The large gathering responded with thunderous applause

According to news reporters and other witnesses, among the numerous healings that occurred, a goiter shrank, crutches were abandoned, and an abscessed arm was returned to normal.

In later years, other individuals were identified as having the stated faith healing gift.

SteamWiki (talk) 20:46, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

I think that is better. Maybe you could use "reported" as well as "stated" or "described" for some of the non-obvious claims. WolfmanSF (talk) 06:47, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions, Wolfman! Changes have been placed into the article to include another sentence I found

FROM: McPherson claimed to have experienced several of her own personal faith healing incidents,

TO: McPherson stated she had experienced several of her own personal faith healing incidents,

I will go through the article and see if there any more that need to be looked at then remove the "weasel word" tag. Probably not much will be done to change the "Claims of extramarital affairs" since accusations are being made, the source of the information is hearsay and/or from the claimants themselves after she is decades dead with no witnesses or other corroborating evidence.

SteamWiki (talk) 16:10, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Splitting and sub-articles

Splitting of this article (as requested in October 2013) has begun with the creation of Faith Healing Ministry of Aimee Semple McPherson and Kidnapping of Aimee Semple McPherson so I have created Category:Aimee Semple McPherson to bring them together. Biscuittin (talk) 20:38, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Denomination

What did Sister Aimee consider herself? I know this article labels her Pentecostal, but is that what she considered herself? Was she non-denominational? Was she Charismatic? Not too sure... And, if she was Pentecostal, was she Apostolic or Trinitarian? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.101.233.164 (talk) 00:23, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

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Birth Place?

The Los Angeles Times obit states she was born on her family's farm near Ingersoll, Ontario: http://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/archives/la-me-aimee-semple-mcpherson-19440928-story.html Could someone confirm real BP? 47.152.245.51 (talk) 21:27, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, Blumhofer's book has it on page 24 and 43-44 upstairs in the family farmhouse, west of Oxford County village of Salford.

SteamWiki (talk) 04:15, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

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[1] Epstein, p. 303

[2] Cox, p. 68

[3] Sutton, pp. 120–122

[1]

[2]

[3]

Discussion

Huh??

Angeles Temple

NPOV

Why is there so little about her?

Quotations

PBS Documentary

NPOV

NPOV, continued

Radio Career

Suggested changes to section "Reported Kidnapping"

Later life and career additions

Edits to Career section

Clarification to Early Life

Comment on "The Verdict is In" by Raymond L. Cox

Faith healing section added.

Citations for conversion of era year dollars to 2012 dollars

Expanded section on "Charitable work."

External links removed

Too much detail

Discussion on the lead:

Suggested article link addition

Image captions

Tag work

Splitting and sub-articles

Denomination

External links modified

Birth Place?

External links modified