Talk:Abdullah al-Harari/Archive 1

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Archive 1

NPOV

NPOV is obvious. User "Aicp1" (abbreviation for "Association of Islamic Charitable Projects", have a look at al-habash), as a loyal and faithful follower of Shaykh al-Harari, has written an enconium. "He is the great 'alim", "the prious worshipper" "He memorized by heart", "his intelligence and wonderful memory" etc. ... does not look encyclopedic at all. --89.56.175.238 23:10, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I didnt make those changes (another user did). Anyhow the article just relays the biography of the Shaykh.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aicp1 7:26, 29 April 2007 (UTC).

I just took your username into account. It seemed obvious, to assume you and 66.240.41.13 to be the same person. Please accept my apology, if I were wrong. But I think your removal of NPOV-message to be revealing. You did not change the article to correct the problem and your argument "just relays the biography" doesn't help, as long as you don't give us any reliable references. --89.56.135.178 15:10, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Please, don't remove the tags. Thanks

Please, don't remove the tags. McKhan 13:01, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

This is an advertisement mostly quoting from AICP's own web-sit and sources. It is NOT NPOV

The others editors are right that this IS, in fact, written like an advertisement as well as quoting from AICP's own web-site and other sources. McKhan 13:45, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? More than half of that information is not even included on AICP's website. Of course some people find it amusing to slander him and AICP although all his books and publications have approval from Al-Azhar. Aicp1

I, exactly, know what I am talking about. This is Wikipedia NOT Al-Azhar. Though, your claim being "approved" by Al-Azhar has been disputed. You have provided NO NEUTRAL / IMPARTIAL / ACADEMIC / INDEPENDENT references, quotes and research, as per Wikipedia guidelines to substantiate your "claims" in that article. Consequently, I will request you to NOT to remove those tags. Thanks. McKhan 13:07, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Aicp1 took the text from here. = Reverted

Aicp1 has been in the violation of several Wikipedia guidelines (NPOV, Original Research .etc) by literally copying and pasting from here, a web-site managed and owned by one of the AICP's leader in North America, to Wikipedia as his own. McKhan 08:12, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Your fight against AICP (the organization) is quite entertaining. And also you should know I didnt add all that information to this article, but a user by the name of Mutakalim did. Once again, it shows that you know hardly anything. Anyways, fight your e-battle... if that is what really matters to you. AICP1

I find it sad when someone thinks that other people are stupid. Al-Ahbash's / Habashies's /AICP's headquarter is in Pennsylvania. 66.240.41.13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) hails from Pennsylvania. And there is highly liklikhood that Mutakallim (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and 66.240.41.13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) are the same. Having said that, let's see what Aicp1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) did. Rather than trying to follow the Wikipedia guidelines, Aicp1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) helped his comrade,Mutakallim (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and / or 66.240.41.13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) from Pennsylvania, in this copy and paste job. Here is the evidence.
And when I pointed out what has been done is in the violation of several Wikipeda guidelines, Aicp1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) turned around and did what Aicp1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been doing quite consistently to sanatize his group on Wikipedia: delibrately removed the link (s) and content which wasn't pro-AICP from this page AND from Al-Ahbash page. Evidence is here and here. And NO, I am NOT fighting anybody here. This is Wikipedia which aspires to have NPOV and therefore I am just helping Wikipedia NOT to fall prey to anybody's agenda. McKhan 06:31, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

dont remove info

stop reverting my work..ill cite it soon Baboon43 (talk) 04:31, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

In order for someone to hold the position of a Professor, that individual has to be on the payroll of that university along-with the educational activities which a Professor undertakes. As far as my knowledge is concerned, Mr. Harrari ONLY studied at the Lebanese affiliated entity of Al-Azhar (as he did in Saudi Arabia) in Lebannon but he was NEVER a Professor on the payroll of Al-Azhar nor he ever conducted ANY sort of educational activities on the premises of Al-Azhar. On these grounds, it is justified to revert your edit unless you provide a NEUTRAL and VERIFIABLE source for your statement. McKhan (talk)

based on your reverts it looks like your not looking for verifiable or neutral sources but just to revert at will with ip's...i have gone through the history of this page. Baboon43 (talk) 04:40, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much for adding the source. Let us read it together the source you have provided to substantiate your claim. Shall we? Here we go:
Al-Ahbash
The Association of Islamic Philanthropic Projects (Jam’iyyat al-Mashari’ al-Khairiyya al-Islamiyya) is a comparatively moderate Islamist force supported by Syria as a counterweight to radical Islamist forces in Lebanon. It is a Sufi movement that devoutly follows the teachings of its founder Sheikh Abdallah Ibn Muhammad Ibn Yusuf al-Hirari al-Shi’bi al-Abdari, also known as Abdallah al-Habashi. Al-Habashi, born in 1920 in al-Hirara, Ethiopia, migrated to Beirut in the 1950s and became a lecturer at al-Azhar University’s Lebanese branch. His school of thought mixes elements of Sunni and Shi'a theological doctrines with Sufi spiritualism...accept the legitimacy of the Imam Ali (the Shi’a doctrine of legitimacy) and of his sons Hassan and Hussein; uphold the teachings of Hussein's son, Zayn al-Abidin....22
Your source CLEARLY states "lecturer" NOT Professor. Please, make sure to correct that.
I just find it quite ironic that "In August 2001 the president of the University of Al-Azhar in Egypt, Dr. Ahmad ʿUmar Hashim, issued a statement in which he announced that al-Azhar had nothing to do with the Ahbash of Lebanon and he stated that the position of al-Azhar was that “that group [the Ahbash] is unwholesome, untrustworthy, and unislamic in its thinking.”
Furthermore, as per (Islamic Science University of Malaysia, "They hold strange deviant views that have never been expressed by any Muslim sect, group or movement....Several Muslim authorities warned against such a sect including: the Islamic Research Academy at Al-Azhar, the General Authority for Research, Fatwas and the Islamic call and guidance in Saudi Arabia, the Higher Council for Fatwas in Northern America. Thank you. McKhan (talk)

that has nothing to do with what i added so stick to one talk page...it doesnt matter what al azhar says all what i posted states is that he was a professor at al azhar and no i will not change it to lecturer because professor and lecturer is the something. and stop quoting opponents of ahbash as they are irrelevant thank you. Baboon43 (talk) 06:22, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Lecturer vs. Professor

I am afraid there is a slight distinction between a Professor and Lecturer. Generally speaking, a professor - usually - is someone who has a higher academic level degree (i.e. doctorate degree - Ph.D) and a lecturer could be anyone who gives a lecture regardless of the degree. Even the Wikipedia has its own dedicated pages for Professor and Lecturer. Since your source CLEARLY identifies Mr. Harriri (without even mentioning his degrees, his tenure or the subjects he taught), thus, the title of Professor should NOT and must NOT be used. I am asking you to correct it as you are the one who inserted that statement in that page. IF you will NOT correct it voluntarily and would rather resort to an edit-war then it will be a tantamount to twisting the very source which you introduced by yourself. Thank you. McKhan (talk)

no not only was he a lecturer he was also a licensed shaykh which makes him a professor at the university here is the source. http://ddc.aub.edu.lb/projects/pspa/al-ahbash.html Baboon43 (talk) 15:24, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for another source which clarifies further that he was not a Professor. Let us stop twisting and bending the sources. Here is what your recent source states WITHOUT even mentioning that he was a Professor, "He settled in Beirut in 1950, and was licensed as a shaykh by al-Azhar University's branch in Lebanon.[28]"
*[28]. See interview with 'Abd al-Rahman al-Habashi, son of Shaykh Habashi and president of the Ahbash in Australia, in ibid., 32-34. See also al-Shira', 27 July 1992, 30-3 1
It NOWHERE states that he was a Professor but "licensed as a shaykh by al-Azhar University's branch in Lebanon." FYI: In August 2001 the president of the University of Al-Azhar in Egypt, Dr. Ahmad ʿUmar Hashim, issued a statement in which he announced that al-Azhar had nothing to do with the Ahbash of Lebanon and he stated that the position of al-Azhar was that “that group [the Ahbash] is unwholesome, untrustworthy, and unislamic in its thinking.”
Under the light of your recent source, you are more than welcome to add the following statement:
"Al-Harari was also licensed as a shaykh by al-Azhar University's branch in Lebanon."
Thank you. McKhan (talk)

abdullah's own website states he was a regular lecturer therefore a professor and your al azhar statement is irrelevant because wikipedia is an encylopedia not a newspaper for current events..by the way dont mix up ahbash the group and abdullah the leader they are not the same..one is an organization the other is a person. http://www.shaykhabdullah.com/biography/ Baboon43 (talk) 16:08, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

AICP and/or Ahbash (or Al-Ahbash) are synonymous to each other as the AICP is front not-for-profit organization of the Ahbash, who are the followers of Shaykh 'Abdallah al-Habashi, thus, there is no "mixing" on my part. Under the light of both of your sources (The World Almanac of Islamism: 2011 and Hamzeh, A. Nizar; Dekmejian, R. Hrair (1996). "A Sufi Response to Political Islamism: Al-Ahbash of Lebanon". International Journal of Middle East Studies (Beirut, Lebanon: American University of Beirut) 28: 217–229. doi:10.1017/S0020743800063145. Retrieved 2009-04-10.), "Al-Harari was also licensed as a shaykh by al-Azhar University's branch in Lebanon." is the MOST ACCURATE and NEUTRAL statement. Thank you. McKhan (talk)
i would like to know what your problem is with aicp and its leader..reading through the history you were reverting sourced edits by your many socks so since you have been caught i would like an explanation and no what you suggested is not neutral or accurate my post stays the way it is unless you have a valid reason. wikipedia is not the place to bring personal vendettas..we are here to be professional and edit articles without being bias.Baboon43 (talk) 05:00, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Let me reiterate one more time: Apart from the information which I provided in the above lines (which you "discredit" quite vehemently as the "opponents" of Ahbash), your first source identifies Shaykh 'Abdallah al-Habashi as a lecturer (without quoting his degrees, tenure or subjects he taught) and the other one indicates that he "was licensed as a shaykh by al-Azhar University's branch in Lebanon." I regret if you don't want to correct your statement as per the sources you provided by yourself. Thank you. McKhan (talk)
let me quote " upon the request of the Director of Al-”Azhar in Lebanon, he lectured in at-Tawhid to the students there" so ther the subject has been mentioned at this source http://www.shaykhabdullah.com/biography/.Baboon43 (talk) 05:44, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
It is quite apparent that you just want to present Shaykh 'Abdallah al-Habashi as a Professor (and then at Al-Azhar) to boost his credibility in the eyes of Wikipedia readers regardless the fact that even your current source indicates that "he lectured" (which is very much vague and ambiguous, specially, without giving the detail about his tenure and whether he was paid for his lectures or not) but once again fails to provide ANY indication that he was ever a Professor at the Al-Azhar in Lebanon. Given that the control of the content presented on http://www.shaykhabdullah.com is in the hands of Ahbash / AICP, it is NOT far-fetched that they may insert the word Professor on that very page which you are using as a source. It is all about marketing. Isn't it?
I just cannot help but to quote a REAL Professor. Here is what Professor Tariq Ramadan has to say about the Ahbash / AICP:
"...we may mention the secretarian group, the Ahbash, which originated in Lebanon and has its European base in Switzerland (Lausanne), while being active in Europe, the United States and Africa. Often calling themselves the "Islamic Benevolent Association," adherents carry on a permanent double discourse: to Western questioners, they claim to support the emancipation of women and laicism to oppose the "fundamentalists" (all the issues they know are sensitive and useful for getting them recognized). However, within Muslim communities, they carry on an extremely intransigent and closed discourse, usually treating most of the principal Muslim ulama as kuffar *by which they mean "unbeliever,' "impious people"). They base their teachings on interpretations recognized as deviant by all other schools of thought and all other scholars of note (for example, their singular understanding of the meaning of the name of God, or their assertion that the Qur'anic Text was interpreted by the angel Gabriel, or the practice of praying to the dead).[43] Their approach on very specific points of doctrine (such as those we have referred to) is hostile and usually violent. [44]" Page 29
Footnotes:
"43. Behind the smokescreen of very open ideas about women, the reality is less rosy: a man may contract a temporary marriage with a woman without telling her that this is his intention (the marriage may last only a few days since this was the intention, even though unexpressed, of the "husband"), and adultery with a woman "unbeliever" is considered only a minor sing because she is not a Muslim. In reality, the entire discourse about ethics and social behavior is based on this distinction between "Muslims" (only the Ahbash) and others (the kuffar, understood by the members of this sect as "unbelievers" in the worst possible sense). The founder, al-Harari (who lived in Lebanon till his death), pronounced judicial opinions (fatwa) for his disciples in which he maintained that lying, stealing, and even killing a kafir, an unbeliever, are minor sins."
"44. Their eruption on the Lebanese scene has caused some damage: they were behind some violent brawls and some killing in mosques. Not recognizing scholars of other parties as Muslims, since they are explicityly kuffar, they have gone as far as to eliminate them even if they were recognized scholars. Some of their leaders, members of the Lebanese parliament, have frequently praised the [late] Syrian president Hafes al-Asad and did not hesitate to describe him as a "saint" at the time of the accidental death of his eldest son. The tested strategy of Hafes al-Asad is well-known--to rely on secretarian groups, in the forefront of which is his own clan, the Alawites, to cause divisions and sow trouble among his opponents. The significant financial resources available to the Ahbash in the West are due to foreign support from Lebanon and, without the shadow of a doubt, from the Syrian regime." Page: 234
Title: Western Muslims and the future of Islam
Author: Tariq Ramadan
Edition: illustrated
Publisher: '''Oxford University Press US''', 2004
ISBN: 019517111X, 9780195171112
Length: 272 pages
and
Thomas Pierret, the author of "Internet in a Sectarian Islamic Context" goes even further and states under '"Ideological spider webs"': "At first sight, devices such as live interactive lessons or voice chat groups seem to encourage debates within the movement, but, on the contrary, close examination reveals that these instruments are primarily used by the leadership to increase its ideological control on their followers and to attract new devotees. Similarly, if one checks the AICP’s unofficial e-forums (www.talkaboutislam.com), one discovers that they function as ideological spider webs. Nothing points to the fact that these websites, which only present themselves as being “Islamic,” are actually part of the Ahbash’s cyber network. For instance, they are not related to the official websites by any hypertext link. Therefore, the random visitor is normally unaware that he or she is exposed to a set of selected opinions through carefully controlled debates. Firstly, zealous participants frequently post chapters of books edited in Lebanon by the AICP, but without any reference to the author or the editor. Secondly, veteran members answer questions concerning fiqh (jurisprudence) and reprimand novices whose religious knowledge is considered “deviant.” Thirdly, a team of regulators supervise the discussions and are in charge of censoring the Ahbash who are too keen to use takfir (excommunication) —since such a stance is considered a mark of extremism by most of the Sunnis—but above all of eliminating most of the messages posted by participants of Salafi persuasion. Ideological hegemony is thus achieved by the creation of a neo-traditionalist virtual space in which they assess very critically the ideas of leading Islamic personalities such as Amr Khalid, Khalid al-Jundi and Yusuf al-Qaradawi."
Their "spider webs" includes but not limited to web-sites built under the "Islamic" or "Muslim" sounding domain names like http://www.sunna.info, http://www.sounah.info,http://www.2mfm.com, http://www.qiblah.us/, http://talkaboutislam.com/, http://forumislam.com/, http://mouhammad.org/, http://www.aicp.de/, http://www.aicp.ca/,http://www.icpa.org.au/, http://www.spearssports.org.au/, http://www.amislam.com/, http://www.alsunna.org, http://www.aicp.org, http://www.aicpmultimedia.org,http://habashies.blogspot.com, http://www.alamanah.nsw.edu.au, http://al-ahbash.org, http://truesalafi.com, http://asha3ira.com, http://maturidi.com, http://jawaaher.com,http://safeena.org and more.
Alas! Wikipedia is on the list of their potential "spider webs" too. Thank you. McKhan (talk)
Im not trying to boost anyone's credibility but only mentioning academic sources..Ahbash doesnt seem to be into marketing as the academic Thomas says that they make websites without mentioning their group so does that sound like marketing to you? Thomas also says that ahbash are tradionalists so do you disagree with the same academic your sourcing?by the way even though its OFF TOPIC whom you call a "Professor" is the grandson of the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood and the spider webs you listed are off topic can you stick to the topic here and not rave about other things or are you trying to convince someone other than me on this talk page? Baboon43 (talk) 18:13, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
I have reviewed the sources over and over again and the label "Professor" is NOT supported by ANY of them. In fact, the word "Professor" is NOWHERE to be found nor mentioned in those sources. As far as Tariq Ramdan is concerned, he (whether you like it or not) IS a bona-fide Professor. Even the Wikipedia (along-with other VERIFIABLE sources e.g. The Guardian, The Washington Post, Oxford University identify him as a PROFESSOR) states, "He is also a Professor of Contemporary Islamic Studies in the Faculty of Oriental Studies at Oxford University. He advocates the study and re-interpretation of Islamic texts, and emphasizes the heterogeneous nature of Western Muslims....Tariq Ramadan studied Philosophy and French literature at the Masters level and holds a PhD in Arabic and Islamic studies from the University of Geneva. He also wrote a PhD dissertation on Friedrich Nietzsche, entitled Nietzsche as a Historian of Philosophy." Tariq Ramadan is NOT even remotely related to Muslim Brotherhood's ideology. In fact, he is far from it, thus, your argument that his views should NOT be taken ON ITS OWN ACADEMIC MERIT and be discarded as he is the grandson of the founder of Muslim Brotherhood is just irrational and illogical. Thomas Pierret (another bona-fide Professor with a Ph.D in Political and Social Sciences at Sciences but NOT in Arabic and Islamic Studies) does NOT consider the Ahbash as "traditionalist" (which does NOT refer to mainstream Sunnis) but NEO-TRADITIONALIST (Please, see here or here for the definition). Had it not for the sake of marketing and to use Wikipedia as a potential spider web by/of the Ahbash / AICP in a sanitized way on Wikipedia, you wouldn't have been spending your time insisting and arguing on including / incorporating each and every favorable word (i.e Professor) written for / by the Ahbash / AICP (or other academics) and discarding anything and everything else as written by the "opponents" of Ahbash / AICP. Thank you.
i had to use my own words so professor is not bad to refer to a regular lecturer at the university..enough with the ramadan stuff it has nothing to do with the subject we are discussing..if you dont believe me on thomas calling ahbash traditional you can email him yourself would u like me to provide his email? are you accusing me of having an agenda on wikipedia? i could say the same about you but i dont take personal cheap shots towards others. Baboon43 (talk) 05:24, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
None of your sources indicate that Shaykh was a regular lecturer and the designation of a "Professor" is a tantamount to misrepresenting the sources you provided by yourself. What is so ironic that you are the one who makes the edit and then provide the sources (upon my insistence) by yourself and when I try to correct them, you simply turn the tables and misrepresent or discredit them by yourself. Please, remember that all the edits you have been making to Al-Ahbash page and other Wikipedia pages are available to others. Aside from the personal e-mail correspondence between you and Thomas Pierret, I would like to invite you to read both of his sources ("Internet in a Sectarian Islamic Context" and "al-Aḥbāsh") and you will see that you will NOT find him using the term "traditionalist" but "neo-traditionalist" which does NOT confer the clout of mainstream Sunnis to the AICP / Ahbash by default. Should you like then I will be more than happy to provide you with the e-mail addresses of Muslim scholars like Dr. Tariq Ramdan, Dr. Muzammil Siddiqui and Dr. Ahmad Sakr. Thank you. McKhan (talk)

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Muslims in Poland and Eastern Europe: Widening the European Discourse on Islam is a reliable source

McKhan the book mentions aicp.org in one footnote. To say that it cites it extensively is untrue. Furthermore, it does not do so for the claim that Al-Harari was a muhaddith.

Also you mischaracterized my edit in the explanation of your edit. I removed the word "renowned" and only cited that Al-Harari was a muhaddith.

I am reverting your edit. Please do not remove reliably sourced information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZaynfromNY (talk • contribs) 18:51, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss your edit on the Talk Page. I was a student in Kiev, Ukraine at the Institute for Foreign Languages in the late 80s and cognizant of the Ahbash's network with-in Ukraine and surrounding countries. Having said that the author is directly quoting from the biography (Биография муфтия Украины шейха Ахмеда Тамима) of a Lebanese Shaykh or Mufti Ahmad Tamim, that Tamim "has the permission (ijaza) to translate Sufi tariqas of Rifa’iyya, Qadiriyya and Naqshbandiyya (at least of the two branches, in particular – Naqshbandiyya­Mujaddidiyya of Shaykh Ahmad Zulfiqar (Zulfiqar 2007: 185), hadiths of Zafar ‘Ali al­Nu’mani Ridawi and some other permissions on translating the Islamic sacred texts – from his teacher, the renowned muhaddith Abd Allah al­Harari alHabashi primarily." I don't see any independent reference next to muhaddith. Do you? (Thank you for not adding renowned next to muhaddith with your edit.). For now, I will go ahead and simply fix your reference format and leave the word muhaddith and revert the changes which I made with my previous edit. Thank you. McKhan (talk) 06:35, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
I think that works for now as well. ZaynfromNY (talk) 06:22, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

AbeEll's edits

AbeEll, The way you made your entry (i.e. edit), I knew exactly why you are here as it reminded me of KevinAbdulqader and many others before you. Your subsequent edits proved my anticipation right.

I am afraid your edit claiming that "He is not "founter of Ahbash", he taught its Shuyookh and lead it, it was a group before he joined it." is not entirely correct. Apparently, you don't know that why the Al-Ahbash are called the Al-Ahbash despite being originated from Lebanon which is far away from Habasha (Modern day Horn of Africa). One just have to use Wikipedia to find out what and where Habasha is and then find out where Abdullah_al-Harari was born hence his followers are called Al-Ahbash despite being Lebanese in majority.

The Association of Islamic Charitable Projects (AICP) was there but they became popular because they follow the teachings of Abdullah_al-Harari, who is originally from Habasha or Ethiopia. Your second edit is preposterous because the AICP claims that they are affiliated with the Al-Azhar and Al-Azhar denies hence the sentence "...which claims to run its schools affiliated with Cairo's Al-Azhar University,[6] a claim which has been denied by Al-Azhar.[7][8][9]". While making this edit, you have reinstated the edit done by IPs 180.246.67.138 and 36.79.65.55 from Indonesia in which they improperly cited the first article by misquoting it (The article clearly states "Islamic Scholars in Somalia’s northern eastern state of Puntland have condemned Shiite books allegedly loaded from Iran which tries to gain foothold in the Horn of African nation, Garowe Online reports......Books spotted in Somalia’s Puntland were largely authored by controversial cleric, Abdullahi Mohamed Yusuf (Al Harari), Sunni scholars said.") and then in the second source (a non-English one) they tried to promote Nahdlatul Ulama Online. (i.e. visiting Abdullah al-Harari's grave by chairman of Nahdlatul Ulama Online is irrelevant to this article on many levels). I will be reverting all of your edits. Please, don't make any edits without discussing them here. Thank you. McKhan (talk) 06:35, 26 March 2017 (UTC)


The source says shia is trying to gain a foothold in the somalia but it also says Sheikh Abdullah's books are largely found there it doesnt say AICP is shia. Please stop spreading misinformation and misquoting your own sources. Thanks AbeEll (talk) 06:37, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

I was NOT the one who inserted those quotes but the Indonesian IPs 180.246.67.138 and 36.79.65.55 and your reinstated them by yourself. You have to read the article to see what is being condemned by the Sunni scholars and which controversial cleric's books have allegedly been uploaded from Iran. The article clearly states: "Islamic Scholars in Somalia’s northern eastern state of Puntland have condemned Shiite books allegedly loaded from Iran which tries to gain foothold in the Horn of African nation, Garowe Online reports......Books spotted in Somalia’s Puntland were largely authored by controversial cleric, Abdullahi Mohamed Yusuf (Al Harari), Sunni scholars said. Thank you. McKhan (talk) 06:55, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

So you're claiming yourself that Abdullah AlHarari's books come from Iran? When you are the one who said HE comes from Harar, clearly you dont even know what you are discussing. Stop misquoting the article, you have some personal vendetta against the man?AbeEll (talk) 07:02, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

McKhan isn't claiming that...it would appear that the article notes that. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:12, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Reverts on Page

Can I ask why the removal of the sources that were properly cited and returned misquoted statements? It is in the 6th citation that claims AICP' Islamic schools are affiliated with AlAzhar, not the way it is said that AICP claims this.

The denial of the claim by AlAzhar is not genuine or reliable. Who posted this image as it doesnt seem to be officially from AlAzhar source. It could be a fabrication as it has no origin through official AlAzhar channels.

The Scholars who visited the grave of Abdullah AlHarari only legitimize his position as a scholar trusted and loved by scholars, this is not information that is irrelevant to the topic rather it is important.AbeEll (talk) 08:18, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

As I earlier stated that I am not the sole contributor to this article nor I inserted the above citation. I will recommend that you should read Al-Azhar_and_Al-Ahbash discussion and the talk page in detail. The sentence, "The group follow the teachings of Ethiopian scholar Abdullah al-Harari.[2] The AICP claims to run its Islamic schools being affiliated with Al-Azhar,[3] a claim which has been denied by Al-Azhar.[4][5][6]" presents Neutral Point of View (NPOV) as it corroborates with what the AICP / Al-Ahbash claims and what the Al-Azhar denies. Wikipedia is not a platform to legitimize one's favorite personality (i.e. Abdullah al-Harari) or promoting favorite organization (i.e. Nahdlatul Ulama) or its clergy (i.e. "In 2009 Nuril Huda, chairman of Nahdlatul Ulama's dawah division visited his grave.[11]."). Once again, the points you are making have been discussed on the Al-Ahbash over and over again. Thank you. McKhan (talk) 08:39, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

As we already mentioned, it is the source that you used that mention that AICP is affiliated, it does no where mention that AICP is in anyway claiming this. The source for AlAzhars denial is not genuine nor is it reliable, and infact It presents proof that corroborates with other than official AlAzhar channels.

The Indonesian visit just provides proof that Abdullah is well known all over Asia by leaders of Islamic Ulema, which has no correlation with your claim of it making him a favorite personality.

The information you have posted claiming Abdullah is Shia has been nullified by not only the Sunnah visit of the Indonesian Scholars but also that his books being found in Somalia no where mentions his books being of Shia origin as YOU have already said they're from Iran. "These have been discussed on AlAhbash over and over again", if they have then there is an issue because you seem to be overlooking references and making personal claims.AbeEll (talk) 21:45, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Once again, you are picking and choosing and you don't seem to be reading the Talk Pages thoroughly and not understanding that I am NOT the sole editor of this article or any other Al-Ahbash related article on Wikipedia. With reference to another detailed discussion here (And trust me there are more) and Wikipedia guidelines, the source you are referring to (I did NOT add that source) and the information posted by the AICP on their own web-site (You don't even know what the AICP claims on their web-site. Do you? It proves that you don't know exactly what you are talking about.) about their affiliation with Al-Azhar (i.e. their books being endorsed by Al-Azhar) cannot be taken as genuine specially when that claim has been challenged by the very same person from Al-Azhar to whom the AICP claimed to have agreement with. That's is precisely why "...a claim which has been denied by Al-Azhar.[4][5][6]" was added into that sentence.
For the second time, I was NOT the one who inserted those quotes but the Indonesian IPs 180.246.67.138 and 36.79.65.55 and you reinstated them by yourself. You have to read the article to see what is being condemned by the Sunni scholars and which controversial cleric's books have allegedly been uploaded from Iran. The article clearly states: "Islamic Scholars in Somalia’s northern eastern state of Puntland have condemned Shiite books allegedly loaded from Iran which tries to gain foothold in the Horn of African nation, Garowe Online reports......Books spotted in Somalia’s Puntland were largely authored by controversial cleric, Abdullahi Mohamed Yusuf (Al Harari), Sunni scholars said. Go and figure.
Wikipedia is NOT the place to prove "...that Abdullah is well known all over Asia by leaders of Islamic Ulema" and to promote Indonesian scholars of Nahdlatul Ulama or Al-Ahbash or its schoalr. I don't appreciate your constant accusation of personal bias. So, please, stop. Thank you. McKhan (talk) 00:59, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

I can show you http://www.darulfatwa.org.au/en/the-historic-visit-of-al-azhar-ash-sharif-to-australia-2015/ which seems to prove that AICP's schools and institutions are affiliated with AlAzhar seeing this post here, as you probably know DarulFatwa was started by AICP. So do tell me how we cannot see your unreliable source for AlAzhars denial as proof? AbeEll (talk) 01:22, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

The people behind Dar-ul-Fatwa belongs to Islamic Charity Projects Association (ICPA) and the ICPA in Australia is basically the Al-Ahbash / ACIP elsewhere. Thus, it is not surprising that Dar-ul-Fatwa, ICPA, AICP, Al-Ahbash and their other outlets post, publish and share the very same information. Indeed, the ICPA / AICP / Al-Ahbash can post whatever they want to post on their web-sites, publish in their material or issue Fatwas however they deem fit or suitable to their cause but it does NOT mean that they (i.e. their Fatwas, material) should be taken as a neutral or genuine source. In a nutshell, Dar-ul-Fatwa / ICPA / AICP / Al-Ahbash's own posting on their web-site proves NOTHING that their schools, institutions and / published material is endorsed by or they are affiliated with Al-Azhar. There is a reason that the mainstream Sunni Muslims in Australia (and elsewhere) don't mingle nor approve Dar-ul-Fatwa / AICP / ICPA / Al-Ahbash's Radio Station and / or any of their material or outfits. Please, note the following:
Reuters and Al-Arabiya has reported about Ali Gomaa's Fatwa (from Al-Azhar) and arresting the men "who had been attempting to spread their beliefs on the campuses of al-Azhar University" and "belong to the al-Ahbash sect."
It begs the question:
  • Why would Al-Azhar let Egyptian authorizes arrest the Al-Ahbash men if they had "affiliation" with the Al-Ahbash and they agreed to the preachings of Al-Ahbash?
  • Why would Egypt's mufti Ali Gomaa issue a Fatwa against the Al-Ahbash in which he "described the group as "deviant" and said it sought to "corrupt the Muslim creed and incite sedition amongst the Muslim Ummah. Moreover, they are paid agents to the enemies of Islam."?
The truth of the matter IS that the Al-Ahbash claim to made an agreement with Dr. Ahmad ʿUmar Hashim (from Al-Azhar) and he himself issued a letter / statement on the official letter-head of Al-Azhar (The ORIGINAL image of that letter / statement in Arabic can be found here) in which he announced 'that Al-Azhar had nothing to do with the Ahbash of Lebanon and he stated that the position of Al-Azhar was that “that group [the Ahbash] is unwholesome, untrustworthy, and un-islamic in its thinking.”' Following is the English translation of the Arabic text:
  • "When I visited Lebanon 2 years ago, I was presented with some papers to me and a lot of pressure had been exerted on me to sign them. However, I have learned from the Egyptian Ambassador and from other sources that this organization (AICP / Al-Ahbash / TIES) is not credible, and their Islamic mindset is unhealthy. Thus, we have broken off contact with them and we have withdrawn / canceled everything they had demanded of us. There is no longer any relationship between them and us. There is no single form of recognition / accreditation and cooperation between Al-Azhar University and them. All papers, in which what is otherwise claimed (by this organization) do not correspond to the truth.
  • "We reject all attempts to abuse the name of the prestigious Al-Azhar University by this organizations or associations, which do not fully commit nor follow the Quran and Sunnah."
(It is pretty sad and interesting that you want whatever Dar-ul-Fatwa / AICP / ICPA / Al-Ahbash publish regarding themselves as genuine and yet you simply want to ignore what Al-Azhar and others (e.g. Markaz al-Nasr li Ahl al-Sunnah wal-Jamaah, Jakarta, Indonesia) have to say about the Al-Ahbash.)
The 'affiliation' of Al-Ahbash's with Al-Azhar is contentious, disputed and rejected by Al-Azhar itself under the light of many sources (I know you consider them all either fake, forged, unreliable or from Anti-Habashi, Wahabi, from the "competing" organizations and so on and so forth) available on-line (in Arabic and English) and given that President of Al-Azhar Dr. Ahmad Omar Hashem issued a letter in Arabic - roughly translated above in English - (which I know you and other adherents of Al-Ahbash considers to be "forged" for the mere reason that it hammers out and eliminates the false legitimacy and clout of having "affiliation" or "agreement" with Al-Azhar which the Al-Ahbash and AICP propagate through their web-sites including alsunna.org, alhabashi.info and more) and last but the not the least a Fatwa issued by yet another President of Al-Azhar and Grand Mufti of Egypt Dr. Ali Gomaa and Islamic Research Academy at Al-Azhar against the Al-Ahbash,
The sentence "The AICP claims to run its Islamic schools being affiliated with Al-Azhar,[3] a claim which has been denied by Al-Azhar.[4][5][6] is fair and neutral as it mentions the claim made by the Al-Ahbash - as mentioned in Haggai Elrich's article and rejection of that claim by Al-Azhar - as mentioned in that letter in Arabic by Dr. Umar and VERIFIABLE source by Markaz al-Nasr li Ahl al-Sunnah wal-Jamaah, Jakarta, Indonesia published by As-Sunnah Foundation of America is right there along-with the letter in Arabic and source in English.
Why did you reinsert the same edits which were previously done by the Indonesian IPs 180.246.67.138 and 36.79.65.55 article? Thank you. McKhan (talk) 03:47, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
The factuality of Azhar's denial is, as has been proven on talk multiple times over the past few years, beyond doubt. It's upheld in reliable, mainstream media sources. I really don't think we need to go through the same exact discussion over and over again, never with anything new contributed by the supporters of the Ahbash, every time a new editor takes issue with it. Isn't there some sort of a way where we can provide a quick link to all the previous discussions? MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:14, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Lets focus on one thing at a time here. You keep claiming that AICP makes things up but the darulfatwa link CLEARLY shows AlAzhar at their Mawlid celebrations, had they claimed AICP is a false misguided sect, they would not entertain with their presence or acknowledgement of AICP's actions. Also you claim Darulfatwa is hated by many yet you can see thousands of people in their Mawlid celebration (from the exact same link). You disregard AICP Affiliated websites and their proofs that are authentic in image/video while your own sources are sunnah.org and an image hosting website with "proof" from AlAzhar claiming they are against AICP while it can be made by an imposter. You keep accusing me of being a member of AICP while If i look at your profile you've been obsessed with these 2 wiki posts for many years as if you are paid to do it so should I call you a paid agent of wahhabis? So you tell me who is right and who is wrong, you claim AICP makes up its own websites to fool people? Fine, this is an Egyptian Website that says " It is a charitable organisation that runs schools in conjunction with Egypt’s venerable Al-Azhar University, one of the largest Sunni Muslim institutions in the world. Indeed, many African students at Al-Azhar have been introduced to Egyptian Sufi orders.". Seems more believable than the blogs you post that lack much professionalism.

1. Your AlAzhar "Proof" has NO BACKING by AlAzhar, if you want to prove me wrong you are welcome but you just keep pasting it as if it'll become a reality

2. Your "Verifiable Letter" from Indonesia is literally a PDF with hearsay and no signatures and again not through official channels meaning it could have been falsified.

3. Also its strange you post AlArabiya as your source considering it is bias and funded by the Saudi government who reportedly fund Wahhabism world Wide.

Also to answer your question about reinserting edits from indonesian IP's, we have many things saying he isnt supported by scholars so maybe we should also mention scholars that do support him? I thought you said we were going for a nonBias approach here? AbeEll (talk) 04:04, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Al-Azhar and Al-Ahbash (Yet another discussion)

MezzoMezzo is absolutely right that the "The factuality of Azhar's denial is, as has been proven on talk multiple times over the past few years, beyond doubt. It's upheld in reliable, mainstream media sources."
Let me try one more time.
Let's dissect "...which claims to run its schools affiliated with Cairo's Al-Azhar University,[6] a claim which has been denied by Al-Azhar.[7][8][9]
For "...which claims to run its schools affiliated with Cairo's Al-Azhar University,[6], following is the reference (Al-Ahram reference pretty much says the same thing):
  • Mustafa Kabha; Haggai Erlich (November 2006). Al-Ahbash and Wahhabiyya: Interpretations of Islam (PDF). Cambridge University Press. p. 529. Retrieved 27 October 2014. (Refers to Al-Ahbash's own monthly magazine, Manar Al-Huda 93 (December 2000): 36-42 and their other sources and web-sites.)
Please, note that Mustafa Kabha and Haggai Erlich throughout the above article (i.e. reference) are using AICP / Al-Ahbash / ICPA / The Habashis' sources. In [18] footnote of their above article, they are using Manar Al-Huda (Here is the exact wording: [18] On those activities, see, for example, Manar Al-Huda 93 (December 2000): 36-42).
Manar Al-Huda and Dar-ul-Fatwa (Australia) also belongs to Al-Ahbash / AICP / ICPA / The Habashis. Nevertheless, it was left as that's what the Al-Ahbash / AICP / ICPA / The Habashis claim.
Now let's move on to "...a claim which has been denied by Al-Azhar.[7][8][9]"
  • "Egypt arrests 22 men for corrupting Islam"- Reuters, 13 December 2007. ("The source said they belong to the al-Ahbash sect – which has a significant following in Lebanon and strong historical ties to Syria – and which is considered unorthodox by many Islamic clerics including the ones at Al-Azhar.")
The first source is from - Reutersor Al-Arabiya
Reuters is NOT a Wahabi organization nor Al-Arabiaya. Thus, one wonders and common sense and logic begs the question that IF the Al-Azhar have had any sort of "affiliation" with the Al-Ahbash / AICP / ICPA / The Habashis then
  • Why would Al-Azhar let Egyptian authorities arrest the Al-Ahbash men if they had "affiliation" with the Al-Ahbash and they agreed to the preachings of Al-Ahbash?
and
  • Why would Egypt's mufti Ali Gomaa (also from Al-Azhar) issue a Fatwa against the Al-Ahbash in which he "described the group as "deviant" and said it sought to "corrupt the Muslim creed and incite sedition amongst the Muslim Ummah. Moreover, they are paid agents to the enemies of Islam."?
Let me offer you the following reference:
  • Liz Fuller (September 14, 2016). "Analysis: Grozny Fatwa On 'True Believers' Triggers Major Controversy". Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty/RFE/RL, Inc. Retrieved March 27, 2017. (Excerpt: "Conference participants, who included Ahmed El- Tayeb, rector of Cairo's Al-Azhar Islamic University, adopted a fatwa stipulating that the sole true adherents of traditional Islam are those who abide by Kalam scholastic theology, belong to one of the four madhhabs (legal schools)......It identifies the Salafi strain of Sunni Islam professed in Saudi Arabia as a "dangerous and erroneous contemporary sect," along with the extremist group Islamic State, Hizb ut-Tahrir, and the Habashis.")
Why would a rector of Al-Azhar support a Fatwa which goes against the Habashis as well as the Wahabis?
Now come to the following two references:
  • Dr. Ahmed Omar Hashem (August 28, 2001). "President of Al-Azhar's Letter / statement issued on the official letterhead of Al-Azhar (Arabic)". Al-Azhar University. Retrieved July 17, 2016. (Excerpts from the letter from Arabic to English regarding AICP or Al-Ahbash: "There is no single form of recognition/accreditation and cooperation between Al-Azhar University and them. All papers, in which what is otherwise claimed (by this organization) do not correspond to the truth. We reject all attempts to abuse the prestigious name of Al-Azhar University by this organizations..")
Above Letter/statement has been reiterated and referred to by the The Assembly of Muslim Jurists in America (AMJA) which also includes yet another former Professor of Al-Azhar University
  • "About the Abyssinians sect". Assembly of Muslim Jurists in America (AMJA). Retrieved March 27, 2017. (Excerpt: "These announcements are embedded in the following literature and media: Professor Dr. Ahmad Omar Hashim`s letter, Al-Azhar University President, to Muslim World League`s Secretary-General in August 24, 2001.")
So, you have Dr. Ahmed Omar Hashem (to whom the Al-Ahbash / AICP / ICPA / The Habashish claimed to have agreement with), Ali Gomaa (from Al-Azhar) and Ahmed El-Tayeb, rector of Al-Azhar (in 2016) all not approving the Al-Ahbash and asking people to stay away from them and then Al-Azhar letting Egyptian authorities arrest the Al-Ahbash men on their own campus for preaching..... and yet your insistence that Al-Azhar has some sort of affiliation with the Al-Ahbash is totally beyond common sense and logic.
And last but not the least, the following paper to which you are calling "literally a PDF with hearsay," it was published on the web-site of As-Sunnah Foundation of America
Under the light of above and several other discussions which I have had in the past on the Talk Pages of Al-Ahbash and Abdallh al-Hariri pages, it is safe to conclude that "...which claims to run its schools affiliated with Cairo's Al-Azhar University,[6] a claim which has been denied by Al-Azhar.[7][8][9] is very much fair and neutral sentence as it presents what th Al-Ahbash claim and what the Al-Azhar deny. I hope it helps. Thank you. McKhan (talk) 06:32, 28 March 2017 (UTC)


Well it seems we have confirmed you're good at one thing, repeating yourself and claiming "its verifiable". I would like to refer you to a proper citation, one that was written in 2008 that does not even mention a fatwa by Ali Gomaa (Which you have yet to prove, not surprisingly).

Here

Where it says "In 1993, representatives of the APBI visited Cairo to present their publications to the authorities of al-Azhar University. Six years later, on 17 November 1999, an official document handed out during a ceremony in the Lebanese capital recognized the APBI as a "legal Islamic society" and a "fortress of knowledge", assuring that "its scientific and Religious "was sealed, sealing an agreement of" cultural collaboration "to promote" Islamic knowledge, culture and ethics "or" authentic Islamic heritage "against" infectious propaganda "reaching the Islam of a 66 the "exaggerations" and "extremism" of the other. Al-Azhar was represented by Dr Ahmad Hashem 'Omar, Director General of Cultural and Scientific Affairs of the institution, accompanied by Dr Mohammad Saleh. They were received by APBI authorities: Sheikh Hussam Qaraqira, Adnan Traboulsi, vice-president of the association, and Sheikh Osama al-Sayed-Sayed, head of the APBI branch in the Beka'a . The choir closed the ceremony at the Commodore Hotel and the participants met with Sheikh Hirari to pay tribute and exchange views on the Islamic mission in the world."

Do you have more denial to throw at me? Or are you going to repeat yourself?AbeEll (talk) 04:19, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Also,just a reminder that I have so far aided by the rules of citing by providing only academic and valid proofs while you have given me random pieces of paper you claim are verified from a prestigious university yet its hosted on a photobucket type website (could be forged) and a PDF that claims so & so wrote a fatwa multiple times without not even once showing said fatwa, just text on a white slate you call proof :)AbeEll (talk) 04:32, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

AbeEll was one of many sockpuppets of Shawwal. As such, I suggest ignoring the account's suggestions: none of the various socks have ever provided stimulating or helpful discussion on any of the articles the puppetmaster set his/her sights on. All that ever happens is a delay in productive work between the time when they start tendentiously editing in bad faith and the time when they inevitably get blocked. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:15, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
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