Talk:2024 missile strikes in Yemen/Archive 1

Archive 1

U.S. Air Forces Central statement

@Soibangla, it's not written in the best way, but I don't believe the numbers in the Air Forces Central announcement are meant include the UK/coalition bombs.

At the direction of U.S. Central Command, U.S. Air Forces Central, CENTCOM’s Joint & Combined Air Component Command, executed deliberate strikes on over 60 targets at 16 Iranian-backed Houthi militant locations...

Removing the explanatory clauses leaves us with the following:

U.S. Air Forces Central executed deliberate strikes on over 60 targets at 16 Iranian-backed Houthi militant locations...

Unless the UK planes are taking orders from CENTCOM, I don't believe the 60+, 16, and 100+ figures would comprise their strikes. Regards, SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 07:16, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

CNN:

US and coalition forces “executed deliberate strikes on over 60 targets at 16 Iranian-backed Houthi militant locations, including command and control nodes, munitions depots, launching systems, production facilities, and air defense radar systems,” according to a statement from US Air Forces Central Commander Lt. Gen. Alex Grynkewich. More than 100 precision-guided munitions “of various types” were used, he said.[1]

maybe the US Air Forces Central source should be removed because it's a primary source soibangla (talk) 07:29, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

new title

the strikes were fighter bombs and missiles soibangla (talk) 10:47, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Ecrusized I recommend you restore the original title soibangla (talk) 11:14, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Airstrike, is defined by missiles launched from aircraft. The strike included cruise missiles launched from submarines, and destroyers. For a similar example, you can see April 2018 missile strikes against Syria. Ecrusized (talk) 11:17, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

but they were precision-guided bombs from fighters, plus Tomahawks from sea soibangla (talk) 11:22, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

The attack is widely described as a missile strike, instead of an airstrike. Reuters, NBC, WaPo. Ecrusized (talk) 11:26, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I do not see those sources say exclusively "missile strike" soibangla (talk) 11:32, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Strike, is probably not alluding to a labor strike here... Ecrusized (talk) 11:39, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

we say "airstrike" first, later shortened to strike

whether from aircraft bombs or missiles from sea, both of which apply here soibangla (talk) 11:43, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

U.S. Strikes Houthi Targets in Yemen From Air, Surface and Subsurface USNI Ecrusized (talk) 11:40, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how that supports your argument. soibangla (talk) 11:46, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Airstrike is an offensive operation carried out by aircraft. Air strikes are delivered from aircraft such as blimps, balloons, fighter aircraft, attack aircraft, bombers, attack helicopters, and drones. With that I rest my case. Ecrusized (talk) 11:48, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

this was an airstrike by aircraft

and Tomahawks soibangla (talk) 11:53, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Page move request

2024 missile strikes against Yemen → 2024 missile strikes against the Houthi Movement The current title implies that these strikes are against the internationally recognised government of Yemen, the state described in the main article for Yemen, when this is not the case. This is like the US raiding a cartel compound in Mexico and the article being called 'US Raids against Mexico'. It is far more accurate and less misleading for readers to specify this is against the Houthi Movement rather than the country of Yemen most will think of. It also gives legitimacy to an unrecognised terrorist group. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 11:26, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

An alternative title could be '2024 missile strikes in Yemen', though this is a little vague PrecariousWorlds (talk) 11:27, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

@PrecariousWorlds Yemen is mostly in control of Houthis, so attack against them would be "attack against Yemen", isn't it? Ayesha46 (talk) 12:58, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

No, it's not mostly in control, it's a very contested situation and it would be inaccurate to for one group to represent everyone. Even so, it still is not internationally recognised as the Yemeni government. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 13:25, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

It is not Abo Yemen✉ 13:29, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

But is not this use of words very much out of 1984? With such 'logic', Israel is able to claim that - far from punishing the people of Gaza - it was only attacking Hamas. Then again, despite the stated target of the attack, the weapons did land within Yemem. In any normal understanding of terms, was not this an attack on the land of Yemen? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.147.153.114 (talk) 12:41, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Ignoring blatant POV, Wikipedia works on a policy of using the COMMONNAME in media sources for articles. In this case, both the countries involved in Prosperity Guardian and the resulting coverage of it has overwhelmingly stated that this is not an attack against the Yemeni government but a faction within Yemen. Refer back to my previous example. The strikes didn't in fact land in the controlled territory of Yemen referred to elsewhere on Wikipedia. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 13:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

In light of above discussion, I've moved to 2024 missile strikes in Yemen. I'll open up a formal RM to get wider participation below; my preferred title would be something like "2024 U.S.–U.K. joint missile strikes against Ansar Allah", but it's quite wordy. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 14:38, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! PrecariousWorlds (talk) 18:41, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Twitter

There is no guideline that restricts the usage of Twitter as a source. You've reverted an edit, which cited CNN reporter Konstantin Toropin. Ecrusized (talk) 19:18, 12 January 2024 (UTC) :take this to article Talk where it belongs please soibangla (talk) 19:22, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Ecrusized, you failed to follow BRD by restoring without discussion. please do not edit war soibangla (talk) 19:29, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Fine, I've self reverted. Can you please restore now that I've given you an explanation? Ecrusized (talk) 19:27, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

please wait for a solid source that will not disputable soibangla (talk) 19:29, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Here is a solid source from him, and the ref is formatted for immediate use:

• Airstrikes Pound Houthis in Yemen as US and UK Retaliate for Red Sea Attacks on Shipping

Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:45, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

That source does not cite what was said on Twitter, namely, 80 Tomahawks being fired overall, and the US Navy destroyers that were involved. For whatever reason, Soibangla believes we cannot use that reference... Ecrusized (talk) 19:57, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Twitter is generally not a good source. Take a look at what we say about it at WP:RSP. It's better to find more solid sources. What he says on Twitter is something he will likely write about elsewhere, so keep searching. More articles will likely appear in the coming days. Maybe they already exist! Search for other articles by him at Military.com. There is no rush. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:01, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

References

Houthis only targetting Israeli connected ships and denying targeting anyone else.

I think this element should be mentioned, as well as what their demands are, in order to stop the targetting. Other ships unrelated have been able to traverse the area unaffected. The Houthis also put out a statement accusing the UAE of trying to create false flags trying to pay other groups in Yemen to attack ships unrelated to Yemen, to serve as a casus belli. Midgetman433 (talk) 01:26, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

"Houthis only targetting Israeli connected ships and denying targeting anyone else. Other ships unrelated have been able to traverse the area unaffected" This is contradicted by several sources, including. the U.S. 5th Fleet which said at least a dozen of these ships were not linked to Israel.[2] On top of this, other sources have confirmed this to be the case. [3][4][5] [6]Sciophobiaranger (talk) 01:49, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

yeah like I said, the Houthis are denying they hit other ships, the U.S. isn't necessarily a nuetral party and their words should not be taken as gospel as complete fact, b/c they have a vested interest in trying to establish a casus belli against the Houthis. Houthis claimed UAE was trying to get other groups in yemen to attack non Israeli ships.

Here is the Houthi statement on the matter.

https://new.thecradle.co/articles-id/18222 Midgetman433 (talk) 03:35, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Houthi statements are not the ultimate source of truth. Plus, was any of the ships they hit even registered in Israel? Plex (talk) 08:37, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Registration doesnt necessarily imply ownership, in this other article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Red_Sea_crisis?wprov=sfti1# all the attacked ships are detailed and i think a few are property of wealthy israelis or related to israel Dreth1 (talk) 08:50, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

That is not what the other article says at all. Many of the ships listed, such as the Maersk Gibraltar, the Maersk Hangzhou, the MSC United VIII, and the Al Jasrah are not Israeli-owned or registered and are not related to Israel. 2601:602:9B01:13D0:B006:3316:4D9C:2BA0 (talk) 22:55, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

the Houthi perspective should be included in the article for completion purposes, it is informative Dreth1 (talk) 08:48, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Map sources

@Soibangla: As you can see on the commons page, the map cites Sanaa Center and Financial Times Ecrusized (talk) 07:35, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

infobox

should have the two sides in the infobox. that one for battles is better.49.205.145.77 (talk) 20:33, 12 January 2024 (UTC)``

I agree. The military operation infobox isn't intended for this kind of use. Nick-D (talk) 21:28, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I'd say stick with this for the time being. If the bombing resumes however, Template:Infobox military conflict would be more suitable. Conflicts are usually reserved for prolonged campaigns. Even though it's early, I believe this will remain a one off bombing. Because according to U.S. and U.K. officials Houthis drone capability has been severely weakened. One officials says, they no longer have the capability to conduct the large scale attack which they did a few days ago. (Reuters) Ecrusized (talk) 21:56, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Support Well, I was wrong. U.S. conducted renewed Tomahawk strikes for the second day in a row. This appears to be a sustained bombing campaign. Ecrusized (talk) 07:38, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

should we restore the old infobox? Abo Yemen✉ 07:43, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I'd be in favor of it. David O. Johnson (talk) 08:12, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

alright ill look for an old version that has it and we'll update infobox Abo Yemen✉ 08:14, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

"The Houthi is a militia group backed by Iran"

is supported by CNN and NYT:

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/11/politics/us-strikes-houthis-yemen/index.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/11/us/politics/us-houthi-missile-strikes.html

regardless of denials by Houthis and Iran, Abo Yemen

soibangla (talk) 06:36, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

also BBC, ABC, AP...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67614911

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-retaliates-iranian-backed-houthi-militants-yemen/story?id=106300275

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/u-s-and-british-militaries-launch-massive-retaliatory-strike-against-iranian-backed-houthis-in-yemen

we must go with what reliable sources say, Abo Yemen. please restore the sentence. soibangla (talk) 06:46, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Someone fixed it already Abo Yemen✉ 07:01, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

The mainstream Western media is being deliberately misleading to promote American propaganda. The Houthis are not a rag-tag band of renegades. They are the government of North Yemen, and have been for several years. They are not "backed" by Iran, they are allied with Iran. 217.180.228.138 (talk) 16:48, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

North Yemen is no longer even a country Abo Yemen✉ 16:50, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I think he meant the region 🤦🏻‍♀️ Viral weirdo (talk) 09:36, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

houthis control the western region of yemen, which used to be a country called north yemen Abo Yemen✉ 09:41, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Use of the word "Support"

@Abo Yemen: I don't know where this is stemming from, but there are no rules on Wikipedia that criminalize the use of certain words. Reference explicitly state that, Australia, Bahrain, Canada and Netherlands supported the mission. (WH statement) You might want to take a deep breath, settle down, and ask yourself where this discussion on this might have taken place, under what context, before playing police force, and reverting eidts based on unrelated discussions. Ecrusized (talk) 14:59, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

It isn't a written rule but almost all articles related to the Isreal Hamas war do not have a supported by section in the infobox. I don't mind having it in the infobox but at the same time the white house statement is a primary source and there needs to be better sources Abo Yemen✉ 15:02, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Ambiguousity of a sentence.

"and they were condemned by the United Nations Security Council the day before the strike." Who is they ? Could someone reformulate this sentence ? Maxime12346 (talk) 17:29, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

The houthis. Abo Yemen✉ 18:15, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Image needed

can anyone find and license any images of the protests in sanaa because i tried and couldn't Abo Yemen✉ 18:14, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I couldn't find one for Yemen but there is a one for Iran, if interested. Ecrusized (talk) 18:38, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Yemeni protest videos shows thousands of protestors, could we link one of the full videos here? Abo Yemen✉ 18:55, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

You could, if it had the copyright. I found an image for Yemen.

. Ecrusized (talk) 18:56, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes this one looks good, you can have the honor of adding it Abo Yemen✉ 18:58, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

On the War Powers Resolution & the Reactions section

Hello,

I'm a bit unsure about this sentence.:

Some critics said that in accordance with Article 1 of the Constitution, Biden needed to seek authorization from Congress before initiating military action, though the 1973 War Powers Resolution allows the president to unilaterally take military action but must notify Congress within 48 hours.

The first half of the sentence states that some members of Congress have one interpretation of the law and cites an independent secondary source that verifies this, that's all fine. The second half of the sentence states affirmatively in Wikipedia's voice that this interpretation of the law is incorrect, citing a source that arguably fails to verify what it is being used for. While it does in fact verify that the law requires the president to notify Congress, it does not mention anything about the president having the authority to take unilateral military action.

My stance is that we should not in WikiVoice give an affirmative answer to the question of whether or not Articles 1 and 2 of the Constitution, the War Powers Resolution, or the War Powers Act do or do not grant the president the authority to take unilateral military action with or without some sort of national security emergency meeting the criteria laid out in the constitution. I think this is a legal question with a range of opinions on it, and it's fine to list those opinions, but I'm not so sure that we can say there is exactly one correct answer. If we do, we should at least find better sourcing, because again, the source cited in the second half of that sentence does not sufficiently source the specific statements being made.

References

 Vanilla  Wizard 💙 20:27, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Seems like a violation of WP:SYNTH, no? Unless this is explicitly stated, in relation to this event, by a RS, I don't believe this should be included. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 20:45, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree. I have rewritten this sentence to simply state the opinions of Congress and legal experts.

Some critics said that in accordance with Article 1 of the Constitution, Biden needed to seek authorization from Congress before initiating military action. Under Article Two of the United States Constitution, the president has the limited authority to take defensive military action without Congressional approval, though supporters and opponents of the strikes disagree that the strikes can be considered defensive. Legal experts have argued that ambiguity in existing law allows for Congress to place limits on the president's authority to take military action without its approval.

Hopefully this is an agreeable change. The phrasing might need some cleanup to flow better, I was a bit sleepy while writing it. Just wanted to publish a change quickly to get rid of the SYNTH.

References

 Vanilla  Wizard 💙 21:16, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

That seems fine, thanks! ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 22:17, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

2 U.S. Navy sailors missing

@Genabab: I don't think it's fair to add this to the infobox. Those servicemen have been missing off the coast of Somalia, outside of the operational zone of this mission. Also reported before the operation. Unrelated, synthesis. Ecrusized (talk) 22:16, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

@Ecrusized The Coast of somalia would be right at Yemen? But fair enough that it was reported before the operation I must have missed that Genabab (talk) 00:05, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Add Syria's stance on the attack

Syrian foreign ministry released a statement on the attack: [7]https://sana.sy/en/?p=323468 Quick-ease2020 (talk) 19:54, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

2024 Yemen airstrikes

I am compelled to emphasize that this original article title of 2024 Yemen airstrikes was unilaterally changed to the current title by Ecrusized without discussion, let alone consensus.

The facts from the getgo was that this strike was not executed solely with missiles, but also by fighter jets with precision-guided bombs. All the devices used were aircraft as defined in airstrike.

While we discuss possible better titles, the current title is clearly inaccurate and should/must be restored to the original "2024 Yemen airstrikes." I seek immediate consensus to restore the original title. soibangla (talk) 02:51, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Ships and submarines were also utilized: [8]. I prefer the current title. David O. Johnson (talk) 03:07, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Also utilized, but not exclusively utilized. It wasn't only cruise missiles. The current title is inaccurate. soibangla (talk) 03:23, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

In the event of no consensus, it would make sense to revert to that as status quo, yes. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 17:19, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Formally, this is a military attack against Yemeni sovereign territory carried out by regular armed forces of another country/countries. It should be called as such IMO. This is not simply "airstrikes" or "missile strikes". Let's imagine Cuba fires over 100 cruise missiles at the US, hitting multiple targets and killing people. Would "2024 missile strikes in the US" be an apt name? Or rather we'd hear about a war against the US? — kashmīrī ^TALK 17:40, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Scope of the article

I don't think this article should include attacks on shipping or even attacks against U.S. Navy vessels. There are already four articles covering the conflict with Houthis. This article should be limited to the bombing of Yemen's territory imo.

• Houthi involvement in the Israel–Hamas war
• Operation Prosperity Guardian
• United States–Houthi conflict (2023–present)

Ecrusized (talk) 21:44, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I see your point and agree that shipping attacks don't belong on this article. David O. Johnson (talk) 21:59, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

• Shipping attacks could belong as part of the background information, but they're not the subject of this article in particular. We also may need a WP:NOTTIMELINE, because half these current event articles tend to devolve into "what happened on Saturday," "what happened on Sunday," "what happened on Monday." We're supposed to be presenting information in readable prose and not a Facebook timeline. GMG^talk 23:53, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

@Knightoften: I'm not gonna revert your edit again and even though I explained in my edit summary I will explain again that there are a number of articles already covering the attacks that the houthis are doing on ships. What you re-added especially doesn't belong in the "assessments" section given it's a section assessing the strikes done on houthis not by the houthis. So could you reconsider whether what you added really belongs in this article.

Introduction expresses mildly inaccurate diction of modern chain of command.

Declaring "US President Joe Biden ordered the strikes,..." is misleading diction. Creates a light misrepresentation of modern leadership, no? The chain of command in operations such as these rarely include the president these days, especially the increasingly inept ones presented. May we argue for it to read more like "U.S. Military Central Command / U.S. Military began airstrikes..." and so on. Is this a fair trade?

I understand that in his release its quoted "Today, at my direction, U.S. military forces—together with the United Kingdom and with support from Australia, Bahrain, Canada, and the Netherlands—successfully conducted strikes against a number of targets in Yemen used by Houthi rebels to endanger freedom of navigation in one of the world’s most vital waterways." but this does not have a literal translation to "US President Joe Biden ordered the strikes". Howlor (talk) 02:00, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Yemen is not "Houthi-held"

better to say Houthi-controlled area of Yemen

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Yemeni_airstrikes&diff=prev&oldid=1195070841

soibangla (talk) 05:17, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Houthi held is correct Abo Yemen✉ 06:37, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

This assertion is based on what argumentation/sources? Plex (talk) 08:42, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

every source in this article Abo Yemen✉ 08:48, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not so sure I understand the differences between saying that the area in green at File:Yemeni Civil War.svg is "held by" the Houthis versus "controlled by" the Houthis. Are they not synonymous in this context? Is the implied difference that area that is held but not controlled is not under the full political or military control of the Houthis? For what it's worth, the map reads as "controlled." To say either that it is "held but not controlled" or "controlled but not held" would require a specific source. @Soibangla: and @Abo Yemen:, could you help me understand the difference from your perspectives?  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 05:13, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

there appears to be a disputable assertion that Yemen is wholly-controlled by Houthis, but other related articles I've reviewed don't seem to definitely verify that. It's kinda fuzzy. And the infobox map seems to make it even more ambiguous, in addition to it showing the number of strikes that has since changed from initial reports. I continue to question the article title as limited to "missile strikes," as fighter jets with bombs were also involved, but it appears that argument has failed, so I give up. There's a good amount of ambiguity in the article. soibangla (talk) 05:58, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't know if I fully understand what your position is, is the criticism with the language "Houthi-held Yemen" that it might make a reader think that all of Yemen is under the control of the Houthis, rather than only the highlighted portion? Or are you arguing that the words "hold" and "control" have different meanings, and that the Houthis do not actually "control" the highlighted area?  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 06:18, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Yemeni war articles does not have enough coverage and because of that many things are pretty much unknown. For example, houthi-held lands are supposed to be controlled and supervised by them but for some reason the Internationally recognised government pays the houthis their salaries. The situation in yemen is pretty much impossible to understand even for native yemenis Abo Yemen✉ 13:09, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Article style

Currently, the article is written in timeline format, without giving much information to the readers besides when and how US has been launching attacks in Yemen. It might be best to only write the significant events as this is seemingly poised to become long bombing campaign. Similar to War against the Islamic State. Any ideas on how to improve this article are welcome. Ecrusized (talk) 21:31, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

What about a prose style, with two major sections, one on the beginning of the campaign and context, with another section on the continuing strikes? David O. Johnson (talk) 20:03, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 January 2024

2 U.S Navy seals killed 2001:8003:266B:4D00:E186:27A9:BAD4:4BE4 (talk) 10:08, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Source? Abo Yemen✉ 11:20, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

This had no direct connection to the strikes. It was the intercepted dhow in Somalia weeks ago. Borgenland (talk) 12:05, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Per above, not directly related. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 14:21, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

New Operation Name

Per CNN and other sources, the new name of the mission is Operation Poseidon Archer. 195.39.171.254 (talk) 00:24, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Deleted the above. I see it’s being addressed. 195.39.171.254 (talk) 00:28, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Operation Poseidon Archer

CNN reports that the US has named the ongoing bombing campaign in Yemen "Operation Poseidon Archer". The article notes that the "named operation suggests a more organized, formal and potentially long-term approach to the operations in Yemen". I would suggest that article be renamed to Operation Poseidon Archer. Ecrusized (talk) 19:59, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for spotting that, but I strongly oppose renaming, unless we will also rename the ongoing Russo-Ukrainian War as Special Military Operation. To put it simply, even as we are witnessing a military aggression on a sovereign country carried out without a declaration of war or a UN Security Council authorisation as required by the international law, your suggestion amounts to whitewashing it as some sort of "operation". FYI, I'm fairly certain that the people closest to the event – the population of Yemen – won't be calling the rockets falling on their heads, "Operation Poseidon". — kashmīrī ^TALK 20:06, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

The comparison between this and the Russo-Ukrainian War seems silly given the difference in scale of the conflicts. You link the military agression article but seemingly didnt read the first two lines where it says "is a military conflict waged without the justification of self-defense" how is attempting to stop the means to which a military group is trying to sink civillian ships in an international strait not self defence? Brandon Downes (talk) 20:53, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

The United States did not invoke self-defence, as no US sovereign territory has been under threat from the Houthis. A claim of "protecting merchant ships" (belonging to other countries on top of that) is not an act of self-defence and is not usually considered a valid reason for a military aggression against a sovereign state. — kashmīrī ^TALK 21:39, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

This is not how articles are named. If the name "Poseidon Archer" becomes the generally-used term to refer to this campaign in the media, then we can use WP:COMMONNAME to change the article, regardless of how anyone feels about the campaign itself. Otherwise, if it doesn't become the common name, it can stay as this. No political argument necessary. Ultimograph5 (talk) 22:00, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

"The United States did not invoke self-defence, as no US sovereign territory has been under threat from the Houthis" the U.S. invoked self defence when the Houthis tried to attack U.S. military ships in an international strait. Regardless of how you feel as Ultimograph said your political opinions do not change how articles are renamed. Brandon Downes (talk) 22:04, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

"I strongly oppose renaming, unless we will also rename the ongoing Russo-Ukrainian War as Special Military Operation" This argument makes no sense. Former coalition operations against ISIS and Gaddafi are named by their operational names. Opération Chammal, Operation Shader, Operation Okra, Operation Impact, Opération Harmattan, Operation Unified Protector, Operation Ellamy, Operation Mobile, Operation Odyssey Dawn. Ecrusized (talk) 22:24, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

"Operation against Gaddafi"? Are you serious? Because that was discussed at the time as "operation laying hands on Libya's oil"[9][10]

Anyhow, calling an invasion a "military operation" is mainly to create a perception that war is more benign than it actually is, by softening the wording in official reports and in the media (quoted from Special military operation). — kashmīrī ^TALK 02:32, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

The ongoing US-led strikes against the Houthis is a textbook surgical strike campaign against specific military targets. Also the Houthis are not the internationally recognized government of Yemen.

Another precedent in naming convention is Operation Infinite Reach. An example of US led strikes against a specific group (Al Qaeda) in a country (Afghanistan)

If theres an official announcement of "Operation Poseidon Archer", it should be treated in a similar fashion considering it's US led strikes against a specific group (Houthis) in a country (Yemen). CT16264 (talk) 05:36, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

You are again trying to compare a full scale invasion of a nation to some strikes against a rebel group. Do you serioulsy not see the difference? Brandon Downes (talk) 11:15, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

"Surgical strike" is type of military tactics. It does not imply legality. For all it's worth, the US attack on Yemen, in absence of any Security Council resolution, is plainly illegal. UN member states are not allowed to carry out military attacks against each other's territory, regardless whether the attacks are carpet bombings, rocket attacks, "surgigal strikes", "special military operations", "anti-terrorism", "denazification", etc. And of course the fact of recognising or not of a foreign government is no mitigating circumstance. If that's unclear to you, I suggest you steer clear of editing any content that touches on international law. — kashmīrī ^TALK 14:23, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Your entire argument on legality doesn't change how articles are renamed/named. Brandon Downes (talk) 15:05, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

"To put it simply, even as we are witnessing a military aggression on a sovereign country carried out without a declaration of war or a UN Security Council authorisation as required by the international law" Houthis are not the UN recognized government of Yemen and are thus a nonstate actor. This argument is null and void. Ecrusized (talk) 10:35, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

It's not allowed to attack non-state actors on foreign sovereign either. Are you arguing that it would be lawful for, say, Cuba to bomb non-state targets on the US territory? And that Wikipedia should describe such an attack, say, as "Operatión Libertad del Capitalismo"? See the nonsense of your argument? — kashmīrī ^TALK 14:25, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I think waiting to change it to when they start actually doing more sustained operations may be better. I know they've taken out some launch sites over the last few days but they have seemingly been rather small and as you quoted with it now being a named operation there may be an uptick in scale of strikes and I think when that happens would be the best time to change the name. Brandon Downes (talk) 20:56, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree. The last few days have seen strikes against individual ASBM launchers. Not the large scale bombing that took place on 1/12. Although, the attacks that took place on 1/22 seem to be a step up from what we've seen. I think waiting a few days to see how things progress is appropriate. I'd also prefer a more formal announcement of "Operation Poseidon Archer" aside from unnamed defense officials talking to CNN. CT16264 (talk) 05:00, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Merge this page with the Operation Poseidon Archer page

Hey guys there’s another Wikipedia article about this topic and that one is using “operation Poseidon archer” as the article name. Since both articles are about the same topic, shouldn’t they be merged? And shouldn’t the more formal name be used?

https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Poseidon_Archer Jab1998 (talk) 00:41, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

That is on Simple English Wikipedia, so it cannot be merged. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 01:33, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 12 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved - No consensus has formed around any particular title in this discussion. This close is without prejudice to opening another discussion, though I think it would be wise to at least propose a direction in the movement proposal, with evidence as to why it would be a better title. (non-admin closure) FOARP (talk) 14:20, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

---

2024 missile strikes in Yemen → ? – There seems to be a good bit of discussion about the page title, and there have been a good number of bold moves as new information comes in. I think having a formal RM here to generate new titles would be helpful in keeping this organized, so I'm opening an open-ended one here. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 14:39, 12 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 05:01, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

My preferred title, for reasons of precision, would be 2024 U.S.–U.K. joint missile strikes against Ansar Allah. I agree that it's wordy (though surely these are not the only missile strikes that have occurred in Yemen this year), and Ansar Allah is not the most frequently used name in English, but it seems a bit more natural to use the name of the group on the receiving end of the strikes rather than the vague "Houthi movement", which includes a lot of civil society groups under its umbrella. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 14:42, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose 2024 U.S.–U.K. joint missile strikes against Ansar Allah. Far too long. Based on similar incidents in the past, I would say either stick with the current title, or call it 2024 bombing of Yemen. Some examples in the past:

• 1986 United States bombing of Libya
• 1998 bombing of Iraq
• NATO bombing of Yugoslavia
• April 2018 missile strikes against Syria

Ecrusized (talk) 15:13, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - we don't need another wordy name Abo Yemen✉ 16:49, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

“wordy name” What? 78.170.225.210 (talk) 18:06, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

"2024 U.S.–U.K. joint missile strikes against Ansar Allah" Abo Yemen✉ 19:16, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

I think something like “2024 Coalition Airstrikes against Ansar Allah” would be best. Reason being more countries could and likely will take part if this continues to escalate including Israel and 23.112.247.3 (talk) 04:28, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Since per article it involves US and UK, renaming to something like 2024 United States–United Kingdom missile strikes in Yemen would be unpalatably long. An alternative could be merging to Operation Prosperity Guardian. Brandmeister^talk 15:34, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

  That's fair. I'm a bit unsatisfied with "missile strikes" as it currently is, since there were also airstrikes with precision-guided bombs (not missiles) that occurred, though I can't quite figure out a way to precisely phrase it. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:39, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

  we define airstrike as "an offensive operation carried out by aircraft," which includes unmanned aerial vehicles. I say we go back to the original title. soibangla (talk) 19:21, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

  Some of the articles regarding Yemen should certainly be merged. There are now four articles, all roughly covering the same topic:

  • Houthi involvement in the Israel–Hamas war
  • Operation Prosperity Guardian
  • United States–Houthi conflict (2023–present)
  • 2024 missile strikes in Yemen

  Ecrusized (talk) 15:56, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I also noticed that. The United States–Houthi conflict and the missile strikes at least could be merged. Brandmeister^talk 16:13, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

• Move to 2024 Yemeni airstrikes. This title was fine, not sure why it was changed. Succinct as reasonably possible and describes the event properly. DarkSide830 (talk) 19:41, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

  yes, it should not have been changed soibangla (talk) 19:44, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

  Agreed; the current title is, in my view, worse than this title in every possible way. Chuckstablers (talk) 20:10, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

  That would tentatively work for me, so long as this doesn't become more complicated by a third-party joining in. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 03:47, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, not opposed to changing if the situation gets more complex. DarkSide830 (talk) 06:07, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

  Onboard with "2024 bombing of Yemen" as well, as while it sounds a bit more clunky, I guess by definition Ecrusized is not technically wrong. But not "missile strikes" or "military strikes". Those seem even more clunky and don't really add meaningful context. DarkSide830 (talk) 06:12, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

  The aistrikes were definitely not Yemeni. They were UK/US airstrikes. Nobody in Yemen would call them "Yemeni airstrikes" ffs. — kashmīrī ^TALK 17:29, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

• The problem with "airstrikes" is that this strike was not an airstrike, since sea launched cruise missiles were more than half the overall munitions fired. By definition a cruise missile launched from a cruiser or a submarine is not an airstrike. Quouting, An airstrike, is an offensive operation carried out by aircraft. Air strikes are delivered from aircraft such as blimps, balloons, fighter aircraft, attack aircraft, bombers, attack helicopters, and drones. A more suitable name would be 2024 bombing of Yemen. Ecrusized (talk) 20:34, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

  With this edit

  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1195214854

  you seem to acknowledge that this strike was not limited to missiles, which contradicts the article title change you unilaterally made last night without prior discussion. Aircraft in airstrike includes both fighter jets and UAVs. The current title is thus inaccurate soibangla (talk) 21:04, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

  I acknowledged no such thing. Perhaps your definition of English is different from what is commonly spoken, but airstrikes definition in dictionary does not cover cruise missile launches. Ecrusized (talk) 21:16, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

  Dictionaries say airstrikes are by aircraft. UAVs are aircraft, as are manned fighter jets. The current title is inaccurate. soibangla (talk) 21:21, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

  A cruise missile is a type of aircraft. It's no less an airstrike than a kamikaze attack; the only difference is whether there's a pilot. LesbianTiamat (talk) 23:49, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

  "Perhaps your definition of English is different from what is commonly spoken"

  Let's not go that way soibangla (talk) 21:22, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

• Comment A U.S. Air Force Commander Statement uses the title "Strikes against Houthi positions in Yemen".^[11] This is close to what seems usable as a Wikipedia article title. How about 2024 military strikes against Houthi positions in Yemen as an article title? This gets around calling them missile or air strikes and also gets around if the strikes were in Houthi controlled, occupied, or held areas of Yemen. --Marc Kupper|talk 21:35, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

  I can get onboard with that, perhaps sans positions just to keep it tight soibangla (talk) 21:42, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

  2024 military strikes against the Houthis or 2024 military strikes in Yemen would probably be best. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 04:15, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

2024 Yemeni airstrikes is the title at ITN that redirects to this article. I think that's a fine title. I find the use of "missile strikes" over "airstrikes" odd. JM (talk) 21:55, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

"2024 missile strikes in Yemen" is more precise, as it includes both the airstrikes and the cruise missile strikes. David O. Johnson (talk) 23:08, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't have any strong preference as long as it doesn't say "against Yemen". JM (talk) 23:38, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

2024 missile strikes in Yemen is less precise as it does not include the jets soibangla (talk) 00:10, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I would be OK with this title. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 04:26, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support move to 2024 bombing of Yemen per @Ecrusized's examples and precedent for these kinds of articles. "Airstrikes" implies strikes solely by aircraft and "missile strikes" is confusing as to whether it also includes strikes by aircraft. 2024 military strikes in Yemen would also be acceptably accurate. Pave Paws (talk) 06:39, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Current title seems perfectly fine to me. 2024 Yemeni airstrikes would be better than an unnecessarily wordy title. Splatterxl – talk 12:26, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
• Prefer 2024 bombing of Yemen as that is more WP:CONSISTENT and accurate, per Ecrusized. Oppose "2024 Yemeni airstrikes" as it is inaccurate.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 08:50, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

• 2024 attack on Yemen (or: "military attack"), which captures both the legal aspect (an attack carried out by one counntry against another) and the facts on the ground. — kashmīrī ^TALK 17:48, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

  Comment but the attack isn't on Yemen! (as int'ly recognized)

  "in" could work though

  RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 13:10, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

  Yes it was. An armed attack against another country's sovereign territory is an attack against that country, regardless whether the attacker recognises a particular government or not. Sure, attackers routinely claim that they are only after some "bad guys", not against a whole country (see e.g. US claiming that they are only after Saddam Hussein during the 2003 invasion of Iraq, or that they are only after Osama bin Laden and the Taliban during the US invasion of Afghanistan); yet legally it's one country attacking another country. — kashmīrī ^TALK 17:36, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose As the name seems fine to me and a change is not necessary. A longer title such as 2024 U.S.–U.K. joint missile strikes against Ansar Allah does not seem appropriate nor helpful. Including the names of the parties involved is not necessary - at least at this point - as the situation may still develop and change (even if this is unlikely). Neutral on changing ‘missile strike’ to ‘bombing’ or ‘air strike’ however as this would be in line with previous articles and seemingly accurate. notadev (talk) 08:49, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose The phrase "of Yemen" would imply that the strike is against the UN recognized govt of Yemen, instead it is an attack against rebels. So the phrase "in Yemen" would suit the title better as it currently is. Crashed greek (talk) 07:11, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Move to 2024 airstrikes in Yemen. "Yemeni airstrikes" implies that Yemen was doing the bombing. LesbianTiamat (talk) 23:46, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support moving to 2024 airstrikes in Yemen. ❯❯❯Pravega ^g=9.8 11:56, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.