Talk:2-step garage

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Edit Request: 19/8/2008[edit]

Should it be mentioned, that 2-step tracks frequenctly introduced 909 open hi-hat as over 909-made rhythms, so over those ones made without 909; the same thing with so-called "House Organ" bass? -- 86.57.205.93 (talk) 16:37, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

note to anonymous editor 86.57.xxx.xxx and editor Yaneleksklus[edit]

please, stop. you are misunderstanding wiki rules. this is not about having LOTS of references. it's about having GOOD references, ones that pass WP:RS. please read WP:RS, and also WP:V and WP:N. i don't want to sound like i am personally attacking you, but the article was better before you started editing it. your references are bad and your english is imperfect. you are not helping the article. if you don't understand some phrases in the links above, ask me and i will explain them. --Kaini (talk) 22:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

the fact that the references section is now at least twice the length of the article only serves to illustrate my point. --Kaini (talk) 01:35, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

MOVE[edit]

AT 23:11 14 OCTOBER 2-STEP ARTICLE WILL BE MOVED TO "TWO-STEP GARAGE" NAME AS IT'S THE MOST COMMON NAME FOR THE GENRE. -- Yaneleksklus (talk) 00:18, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

wow, some discourse. actually you raise an interesting point despite the caps. some alcoholics resort to a twelve-step program, but there's a breakdance move called the 6-step. i think all that can be said for sure is that 2step is not consistent with WP:MOS --Kaini (talk) 00:54, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Most articles, including the majority of those referenced here, refer to it as "2-step". I'd suggest keeping it as "2-step" would be consistent with having the most common name. - filelakeshoe 01:38, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
the most common name? it's the same but "2-step" is the most popular way of writing... 119,000 results for "2-step" vs 11,900 results for "two-step" so the current title should be kept --True Steppa (talk) 05:12, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

REFERENCE LIST FOR THE NAME OF THE GENRE[edit]

  • (2004) "Popular Music Genres: An Introduction", ISBN 0748617450, 9780748617456, p.216: "...to be renamed two-step garage"
  • (2002) "Companion to Contemporary Black British Culture", ISBN 0415169895, 9780415169899, p.93: "...'Fill me in' retained the distinctive two-step garage heat..."
  • (2006) "Beyond Subculture: Pop, Youth and Identity in a Postcolonial World", ISBN 0415278155, 9780415278157, p.77 "...there is a current vogue for two-step garage and r'n'b bhangra mixes..."
  • (2000) "Machine Times: DEAFOO", p.22: "...lyrically regressive, rhythmically advanced dance musics like R&8, Southern bounce and two-step garage..."
I'll address your sources as I have time. Firstly, this one doesn't imply these genres are related at all bar the fact that they are all 'rhythmically advanced'. --Kaini (talk) 17:28, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • (2006) "Unlocking the Groove: Rhythm, Meter, and Musical Design in Electronic Dance Music", ISBN 0253346622, 9780253346629, p.39: "...referred to as "two-step"..."
  • (2004) "The New Rolling Stone Album Guide: Completely Revised and Updated 4th Edition", ISBN 0743201698, 9780743201698, p.208: "The British dance genre two-step (aka UK garage) rose out of the clubs..."
  • (2004) "Inside Clubbing: Sensual Experiments in the Art of Being Human", ISBN 1859737137, 9781859737132, p.30: "Then you move onto the underground garage of today, which is again about 130 BPM, but as it's a two-step beat it feels slower."
  • "Lg 08 Britain", ISBN 0312374496, 9780312374495, "...the two-step sub-bass..."
  • (2002) "This is uncool", ISBN 1844031055, 9781844031054, p.412: "...UK garage/two-step..."

For "2-step":

  • (2002) "The Techno Primer: The Essential Reference for Loop-based Music Styles", ISBN 0634017888, 9780634017889, p.31: "2-Step relies heavily..."
  • (2003) "All Music Guide to Soul: The Definitive Guide to R&B and Soul", ISBN 0879307447, 9780879307448, p.178: "...Grammy-nominated Born to Do It, which blended 2-step, R&B and pop"
This one doesn't imply fill me in is a 2-step track, rather that it is 2-step influenced --Kaini (talk) 17:28, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • (2003) "All Music Guide to Hip-hop: The Definitive Guide to Rap & Hip-hop", ISBN 0879307595, 9780879307592, p.338: "... 2-Step/British Garage"
  • (2007) "DJing for Dummies", ISBN 0470032758, 9780470032756, p.185: "...to recognise breakbeat, R&B, or 2-step garage"
  • (2003) "The Rough Guide to Cult Pop: The Songs, the Artists, the Genres, the Dubious Fashions", ISBN 1843532298, 9781843532293, p.42 "...(later 2-step)..."
  • (2007) "Bebo Unbound: Secure Your Privacy, Buzz Your Band, and Get Popular on Bebo", ISBN 1933747072, 9781933747071, p.147
How is this a WP:RS for this article? --Kaini (talk) 17:28, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For "2step":

  • (2005) "Engineering Culture: On 'the Author as (digital) Producer'", ISBN 1570271704, 9781570271700, p.178: "...2Step and other forms of contemporary urban music..."
What does this imply, bar that 2-step is a form of contemporary urban music? --Kaini (talk) 17:28, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • (2005) "How Open is the Future?: Economic, Social & Cultural Scenarios Inspired by Free & Open-Source Software", ISBN 9054873787, 9789054873785, p.136: "...2Step and other forms of contemporary urban music"...
What does this imply, bar that 2-step is a form of contemporary urban music? --Kaini (talk) 17:28, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • (2006) "Contemporary Youth Culture: An International Encyclopedia, v.2" ISBN 0313337292, 9780313337291, p.330: "...and 2Step."
  • (2004) "Electronic Vibration: Pop Kultur Theorie", ISBN 3810041025, 9783810041029, p.VI: "mit Speed-Garage und 2Step neue Strömungen herausgebildet", translated: "with speed garage and 2Step new currents developed"
  • (2006) "Berlin", ISBN 8360496609, 9788360496602, p.149 "...nu jazz, 2step,..."
  • (2007) "Techno, Gothic und HipHop: musikorientierte Jugendkulturen im soziologischen Vergleich: Musikorientierte Jugendkulturen im soziologischen Vergleich", ISBN 3638704637, 9783638704632, p.80: "..."2Step" (Mischung aus "House"..)", translated: "...2Step" (Mixture of "House"...)"
  • (2005) "Kulturverführer Köln und Umgebung: Clubs, Theater, Museen, Kinos, Galerien, Events, Szene", ISBN 3937742050, 9783937742052 p.57: "...Reggae oder 2Step.", translated: "...Reggae or 2Step."
  • (2008) "The Digital Musician", ISBN 0415962153, 9780415962155, p.161</ref>

For "2 step":

  • (2000) "Cyberarts 2000: International Compendium Prix Ars Electronica", ISBN 3211834982, 9783211834985, p.195 "...,2 step garage, broken beats,..."
  • (2004) "Rave Culture and Religion", ISBN 0415314496, 9780415314497, p.190: "...the emergence of '2 step' garage..."
-- 93.85.51.220 (talk) 17:15, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • nice work man! you forget "TwO-SteP" and "7w0-573p" :) providing 30 refs for a way of writing is just nonsense. actually "2-step" and "two-step" is the same! yet "2-step" is the most popular so must be used --True Steppa (talk) 18:14, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

REFERENCES FOR THE ARTICLE[edit]

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  1. ^ (2004) "Popular Music Genres: An Introduction", ISBN 0748617450, 9780748617456, p.216: "This later beat structure, originally developed in hardstep drum'n'bass, led this form of garage to be renamed 2-step garage"
  2. ^ (2006) "Музпросвет", ISBN : 5-93321-059-5, "..2nd and 4th kick drums were got out of drum pattern, resulting only 1st and 3rd kick drums left"
  3. ^ 2Step garage: "..it does this by removing every second and fourth kick from the 4-to-the-floor pulse, creating a lurching, falter-funk feel."
  4. ^ (2006) "Музпросвет", ISBN : 5-93321-059-5, "It's clear, that those kickdrums [1st and 3rd] just stunt on their places, they always digress from strict scheme"
  5. ^ 2Step garage: "More adventurous 2-step producers program irregular kick-drum patterns..."
  6. ^ (2002) "The Techno Primer: The Essential Reference for Loop-based Music Styles", ISBN 0634017888, 9780634017889, p.31: "It involves Hip-hop loops at tempos usually associated with House music around 125-135 bpm"
  7. ^ (2004) "Inside Clubbing: Sensual Experiments in the Art of Being Human", ISBN 1859737137, 9781859737132, p.30: "Then you move onto the underground garage of today, which is again about 130 BPM, but as it's a two-step beat it feels slower."
  8. ^ (2001) "The Cambridge Companion to Pop and Rock", ISBN 0521556600, 9780521556606, p.171: "The four-to-the-floor rhythm of house offered..."
  9. ^ 2Step Garage: "There is something in 2step - it's either bassline written with the tenderness of soul..." "Among 2step traits are [..] and basslines taking their roots from funk"
  10. ^ 2Step garage: "..it does this by removing every second and fourth kick from the 4-to-the-floor pulse, creating a lurching, falter-funk feel."
  11. ^ (2002) "The Techno Primer: The Essential Reference for Loop-based Music Styles", ISBN 0634017888, 9780634017889, p.31: "2-step relies heavily on [...], House-style vocals,.."
  12. ^ (2006) "Музпросвет", ISBN : 5-93321-059-5, "..vocals have started getting borrowed from a-capella versions of american r&b hits.."
  13. ^ (2002) "The Techno Primer: The Essential Reference for Loop-based Music Styles", ISBN 0634017888, 9780634017889, p.32: "The 2-Step movement started in the UK with producers doing illegal remixes of songs by major R&B artists. They would sample the a-capella versions of various songs on 12-inch records imported from USA"
  14. ^ (2004) "Rave Culture and Religion", ISBN 0415314496, 9780415314497, p.190: "The Sunday scene also introduced R'n'B to the second or backroom at events, which, in turn, influenced the emergence of '2 step' garage. This addition drew heavily on R'n'B influences, especially in the terms of its vocal arrangements."
  15. ^ (2006) "Музпросвет", ISBN : 5-93321-059-5, "Vocals are gotten cut into pieces.."
  16. ^ 2Step or 'Adult Hardcore'"MC's, for instance, now superimpose a smoov R&B patina over the junglist's creole hybrid of ragga patois and Cockney patter."
  17. ^ (2006) "Музпросвет", ISBN : 5-93321-059-5, "2Step is definitely softer, more lyrical, more melodic, more erotic than dnb.."
  18. ^ 2Step garage: "Like 2-step, lover's rock was a UK-spawned hybrid of silky US soul and Jamaican rhythm, that restored treble to the bass-heavy frequency spectrum and replaced militant spirituality with romantic yearning."
  19. ^ An alternative view on the history of the UK Garage: "There was a lot of controversy about who actually produced tha first 2 step tune. Some say it was [...] mix of "Never Let You Go". Others say it was tha Dreem Teem's mix of "My Desire".
  20. ^ What is 2Step Garage?: "[..] the first 2 Step record. Many give credence to the remix [..] of " Never Let you go" [..]. However, even this causes arguments as to the real deal bonifide first 2 Step outing. Many state that it was from the track called "My Desire" by Amira [..]; in which the remix duties were given to the Dreem Team(England) or even Dem 2's "Destiny" that should be given the credits to this."
  21. ^ An alternative view on the history of the UK Garage: "There was a lot of controversy about who actually produced tha first 2 step tune. Some say it was [...] mix of "Never Let You Go". Others say it was tha Dreem Teem's mix of "My Desire".
  22. ^ What is 2Step Garage?: "[..] the first 2 Step record. Many give credence to the remix [..] of " Never Let you go" [..]. However, even this causes arguments as to the real deal bonifide first 2 Step outing. Many state that it was from the track called "My Desire" by Amira [..]; in which the remix duties were given to the Dreem Team(England) or even Dem 2's "Destiny" that should be given the credits to this."
  23. ^ (2006) "Музпросвет", ISBN : 5-93321-059-5, "In the summer of 1999, the was two-step psychosis in London. Fever-like atmosphere around two-step was just like it was around oldschool jungle few years earlier." "Drum and bass was two complex for females. That's why two-step won it."
  24. ^ (2004) "Popular Music Genres: An Introduction", ISBN 0748617450, 9780748617456, p.216: "Come 2000—3, the two-step rhythm structure became less and less popular.."
  25. ^ http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/article/feature/44706-the-month-in-grime-dubstep "This love of the past as well as the present is unusual in grime, where many of the youngest UK "youngers" grew up referencing little musically before grime, so that even 2step garage-- the sound's predecessor-- was old school. This stripping out of old patterns for a time allowed grime to hyper-evolve in 2002-2005, so that it massively outstripped all UK urban genres this decade in terms of innovation."
  26. ^ (2006) "Музпросвет", ISBN : 5-93321-059-5, "The cult of luxury is a specific trait of 2step scene..."; "According to this glamourous style, two-step clubs, labels, pirate stations were named..."

-- 93.85.51.220 (talk) 17:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Anyway that isn't really the point. The point is you won't discuss your edits on many electronic articles, changes that you're making mostly against the consensus of the regular maintainers of the articles in question. No-one owns an article, but you will have to discuss your edits or people will keep reverting them. It's called forming a consensus. And the other point is you're blocked, and not meant to be editing at all until that expires. --Kaini (talk) 17:28, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
your refs is mostly not consistent with WP:RS, WP:V and WP:N. you must read rules before warring --True Steppa (talk) 18:17, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
yanelek, i've started attempting to integrate the material you have added to the article which passes WP:RS to the old version of the article. the wire magazine passes WP:RS very well. some dj ive never heard of ranting blog-style does not. i hope that when you come back you can see that people appreciate you want to improve the article. just talk about it here first before making huge changes, PLEASE. --Kaini (talk) 23:44, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
and i'm happy with that, for now at least. the history section has the potential to be great. --Kaini (talk) 01:08, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Article rewrite[edit]

Article is rewrited without discussion. Some important citations are deleted. -- I.0.27456.t.2 (talk) 01:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First of all: infobox.

As even current article version suggests, deleted version of infobox far better suits the article:

2-step garage
Stylistic originsSwing - Soul - Funk - Cont. R&B - NJ sound - Speed garage - Drum and bass
Cultural originsLate 1990s, London, UK
Typical instrumentsSequencer - Turntables - Samplers - Keyboards - Drum machines - PC
Derivative formsDark 2-step
Breakbeat garage

Popularity is noticed; with swing, soul, funk, nj sound ("us garage") and speed garage (the mention from adult hardcore that 2-step drum pattern is reverted speed garage pattern) are mentioned. Breakbeat garage is noticed as derivative genre. --I.0.27456.t.2 (talk) 01:36, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Second: drum pattern scheme. It only illustrates cut 4-to-4 scheme of two-step in comparison to house. So it needs to be returned -- I.0.27456.t.2 (talk) 01:38, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Third: there is no source for the name of genre, it can't be said that "2-step" came from it's drum pattern.

Fourth: 4x4 garage is not a genre. Speed garage is a genre.

Fifth: This: "Instrumentation usually includes keyboards, synthesizers, and drum machines. There are occasional additions, such as guitar, piano and horns. The primarily synth-based basslines used in 2-step are similar to those in the style's progenitors such as UK garage and before that, drum and bass and jungle," needs exact cite.

Sixth: "Vocals in 2-step garage are usually female," doubtful, probably original research. -- I.0.27456.t.2 (talk) 01:42, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]


oh, so now you want to discuss changes? interesting.
look, besides anything else - and some of this is complete WP:OR and WP:POV - i am a fan of this music. Craig David, and to an extent so solid crew, that's pop influenced by 2-step. secondly whilst swing, soul, and funk might deserve mention in the article, they are not direct influences on this music - they influenced the music that in turn influenced 2-step - and so they do not belong in the infobox. as for NY garage, that developed completely separately. the term garage means a very different thing in the US than it does in the UK, even though they are influenced by the same thing. anyway your source for all that, is a blog-style rant by a DJ who fails WP:N, called 'an alternative (different or WP:FRINGE) history of garage', which fails WP:RS. when your ban expires you're welcome to work that in somewhere, but please read the policy. so i'm sorry - i've tried my absolute best to incorporate your additions into the article, and i find it funny you're trying to collab NOW, but stuff that doesn't meet wiki standards as a source has to go, because it's introducing big time POV issues into the article. as for the material you cast doubt on, i'm gonna tag it now, and add refs over the weekend. --Kaini (talk) 01:47, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
btw, i might agree with your point #4. --Kaini (talk) 01:49, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
okay, added tags where needed yanek. i hold the fact that 2-step basslines to be influenced by DnB/UK Garage/jungle to be self-evident. 2-step wouldn't exist without these genres, and all elements of the music are influenced by them. this is backed up in the wire article anyway. and regarding vocals, well they are similar to house and r'n'b per your cite. check those articles for lots of evidence that they're usually female, probably to the degree that MCs are usually male.
please don't edit the article while blocked. i know you want to make articles better, and you'll get into trouble. --Kaini (talk) 01:58, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

{{RBmusicbox}}[edit]

do we really need this? actually we can speak about R&B/pop influenced by 2-step, yet 2-step isn't R&B subgenre. --True Steppa (talk) 03:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

audio samples[edit]

okay, i think we need one more audio sample for the top of the page, centre stage, demonstrating the most typical, most encapsulating sound of a 2-step rhythm there is. suggestions? --Kaini (talk) 22:59, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]


shouldn't el-b be mentioned as a pioneer of the darker 2step sound? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.114.177.86 (talk) 15:17, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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