Category talk:Roundheads

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Untitled[edit]

Since "Roundhead" was a derogatory nickname used by the Royalists, is this an appropriate category? Rjm at sleepers (talk) 08:46, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Like Cavalier, Roundhead long lost any pejorative meaning that it started out with (as evidenced by the meaning given to it the OED).

Roundhead:1. Eng. Hist. A member or adherent of the Parliamentary party in the Civil War of the 17th century, so called from their custom of wearing the hair close cut.
Cavalier:3. A name given to those who fought on the side of Charles I in the war between him and the Parliament; a 17th c. Royalist.

A Google search on Books published after say 1900, 1980 or whatever will confirm this. For example see William Roger Louis The Oxford History of the British Empire, Oxford University Press, 1998 ISBN 0198205627, 9780198205623. p. 223 as an example -- PBS (talk) 13:25, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

From the talk page of Rjm at sleepers

Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 May 14. I am being bold. When that decision was taken the article Cavalier was not as that name. Now that there are two articles Cavalier and Roundhead, it makes sense to have the categories under the same names as the Wikipedia articles and not longer more verbose descriptive names. Like Cavalier, Roundhead long lost any pejorative meaning that it started out with (as evidenced by the meaning given to it the OED). --PBS (talk) 13:00, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

From my talk page:

IMO, roundhead remains a derogatory nickname and is not suitable for an encyclopedia that has a neutral point of view as one of its policies. In addition, someone who does not speak English as their native language is more likely to understand the descriptive phrase "parliamentary supporters in the English civil war" even though it is longer. Rjm at sleepers (talk) 14:30, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

--PBS (talk) 14:53, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any evidence from reliable sources that roundhead "remains a derogatory nickname" --PBS (talk) 14:51, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One other point on derogatory nicknames. If one looks at the political parties that arose during the latter half of the 17th century Tory has its origins in the name of Irish terrorists (at least to those who initially used the nickname) and Whig in bunch of radical Scottish Yokels. But like Cavalier and Roundhead those names no longer carry the original insult, and that original insult (although in the case of roundhead it seems more descriptive than insulting) is no reason not to use the terms were appropriate for the political parties the names represent. --PBS (talk) 08:45, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the problem is not so much that it is derogatory as that it is a nickname. It's rather as if one replaced "Category:policeman" with "Category:copper" (or some equivalent American slang), or "Category:British sailors" with "Category: Jack Tars". 45ossington (talk) 22:09, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The word Roundhead is used in lots of reliable sources about the English Civil War and have been for a long time for example Edward Peacock The Army Lists of the Roundheads and Cavaliers: Containing the Names of the Officers in the Royal and Parliamentary Armies of 1642, J.C. Hotten, 1863; or more contemporary books: Christopher Hibbert Cavaliers and Roundheads: English at War, 1642-49 (1993); Cecilia Mar Feilding, Royalist Father and Roundhead Son: Being the Memories of the First and Second Earls of Denbigh, 1600-1675 (2007).

I think it is better to used a succinct name than a longer description, the examples that you give are for replacing one name with another nickname, and although I have described C & R as nicknames, The OED does not. In the case of copper, copper is described as "A policeman" and policeman is given a full explanation, as are Roundhead and Cavalier. So what makes you think that the word Roundhead that stated out as nicknames still is one as many words that started out as nicknames at the time of the civil war are not usually still described as such, for example Leveller, Digger, and Quaker. --PBS (talk)

Whilst there may be sources that use the term, the formost biographical dictionary (the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography) does not us the term "roundhead" to describe any of the people in this category as far as I can see. The Daily Telegraph clearly intended an uncomplimentary allusion when it said "The Prime Minister is a Roundhead to the tips of his chewed fingernails, whereas his predecessor was a natural Cavalier." The meaning is potentially unclear to anyone for whom English is not their first language, whereas the previous category name has a natural meaning. Rjm at sleepers (talk) 08:57, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Although not used frequently the terms are used in the ODNB here are two examples: Armorer, Sir Nicholas "On 3 June Sir Edward Nicholas, secretary of state to the exiled Charles II, wrote from The Hague to Lord Hatton in Paris to report a duel between Major Armorer and another exiled cavalier, Lieutenant-Colonel Sir William Leighton". Bard, Henry "At Cheriton, Hampshire, on 29 March 1644, against orders, and ‘with more youthful courage than soldier-like discretion’ (Adair, 140), he impetuously charged the roundhead cavalry and his whole regiment was either killed or captured, Bard himself losing the use of an arm."

The ODNB has the luxury of only having to describe one group of royalists, one group of regicides etc, the advantage of Cavalier and Roundhead is that they both have specific articles on Wikipedia and they are sightly fuzzy allowing us to include people of the two parties who came to prominence in the interregnum. For example under a category called "parliamentary supporters in the English civil war" should Richard Cromwell be included as his Wikipedia article says "It is possible that he served as a captain in Thomas Fairfax’s lifeguard during the late 1640s, but the evidence is inconclusive."? --PBS (talk) 11:19, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Brown condemned as 'cavalier' for dropping OFR bombshell (November 2005). Both terms are familiar enough in common parlance to be used both positively and negatively as of course both terms have their positive side and negative extremes (as one would expect from terms coined in a civil war). However that does not mean that the Roundhead is not used in reliable sources to describe "parliamentary supporters in the English civil war".

There is simple English for those who do not understand English well enough to understand the term, but there is no reason why they should not understand it as Roundhead is described at the top of the category in detail with a link to the article for those who have never heard of it. Your logic would have us rename the category Levellers to category:Mid 17th century English political movement who supported popular sovereignty, an extended franchise, equality before the law and Category:Quakers etc to a descriptive names. --PBS (talk) 10:52, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]