Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jacques Plante

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 15:31, 31 March 2008.

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Jacques Plante

Jacques Plante was a goaltender for Montreal Canadiens dynasty in the late 50s. He is now best-known as the inventor of the first practical goaltender mask for ice hockey. He was also the first one to use it regularly in NHL games. I've worked since around December on this article, and with the help of Risker, Nishkid64 and many others who gave me pointers and/or actually edited it, I think this very comprehensive article about Plante is worthy of featured status. Maxim_(talk) 15:08, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Co-nomination–concur with Maxim, I think this article is ready. Risker (talk) 06:48, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment: Links were reviewed. As per previous hockey FACs, the tool doesn't like websites from the Hockey Hall of Fame, but I've cheked manually and they work fine. Maxim_(talk) 15:08, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comments-

• Does line 13 to 18 of the first paragraph in "Early Life" really need all the repeated cites? Couldn't it all be cited with just one?

• I'm unsure of what lines you're talking about. Can you be more specific? I don't use monobook Skin so the lines probably render differently for me. --Maxim_(talk) 19:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• In Early Life, why did his school's coach order the former goalie off? Perhaps just a quick phrase?

• Done. --Maxim_(talk) 19:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• Same with Minor Leagues, couldn't the tuques statement be concluded in 19 cite? There's a few of those else where in the article, but it's a minor thing.

• I don't understand what you mean by this... --Maxim_(talk) 19:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• Figured this one out; the same reference (#19) was used for two consecutive sentences, and I have simply cited once for both sentences. Risker (talk) 06:48, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

• Perhaps a little more detail on the on-ice brawl in section "Five Stanley Cups"?

• I've reworded that paragraph, and inserted a link to the article about the incident. --Maxim_(talk) 19:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• And I've done a little further work on it, because on further research the suspension came several days before the ensuing riot. Risker (talk) 06:48, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Otherwise, Support. --Sunsetsunrise (talk) 17:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment The fifth paragraph in the opening seems to be repeated in the 'Retirement and death' section. Seeing as how the opening is usually is supposed to be a brief overview of the article, it would probably be in the best interests to merge that information into the relevent section, and merge any other information into the proper place.

Also wouldn't hurt to add a few external links, seeing how there is only one. Knowing that there are currently issues with a template for a link, I know that isn't long to be fixed. Kaiser matias (talk) 00:32, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

• Support All my concerns addressed. Also like seeing so many images of Plante, and the video clip. Kaiser matias (talk) 00:55, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

• Two worthwhile external links added, including a link to the "History by the Minute" video re-enactment of Plante's injury that led to him wearing the mask in regulation play the first time; many Canadians will remember it. Risker (talk) 06:48, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
• About the lead, the lead is supposed to be an overview of the article. While it mentions parts of Retirement and death, it's supposed to do that, and section itself gives more information on that, too. Maxim_(talk) 12:29, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment

• The "See also" section belongs above the "References" section
• "where he became well known" - "well known" needs a hyphen
• "Canadiens won the game 3-1" - wrong dash
• Non-breaking spaces are needed between numerical and non-numerical elements, eg. "50 cents"
• The "See also" section shouldn't contain articles already linked elsewhere.
• "he signed for $35000" - should be "$35,000"
• Some duplicate refs could be combined, eg. "Plante, R., pg.214" or "Plante, R., pg.14"
• Some inconsistent page number formatting, eg. "pg.214", "pg. 216"
• "He's [Plante] the biggest attraction since the good old days of Terry Sawchuk". - period belongs inside the quotes if present in the original text.
• "three–week training camp", "10–year contract" - should be hyphens.
• "a $10–million ... contract" - hyphen/dash not needed. Epbr123 (talk) 00:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Mostly all done. For your 4th point, can you please link me to the appropriate guideline as I'm not sure what to do. Secondly, I think the see alsos are to link to subject that were not discussed a lot but are somehow pertinent to the subject. The mask is mentioned, even linked, but not discussed as much and should be an important read after the Plante article. Hall and Sawchuk were Plante's contemporaries and the two other leading goalies of the age. Maxim_(talk) 01:15, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Regarding non-breaking spaces, the relevent guideline is Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Non-breaking spaces. I think they just need to be added to "50 cents" and "$10 million". Regarding "See also", Wikipedia:Layout#See also states, "Links already included in the body of the text are generally not repeated in "See also"; however, whether a link belongs in the "See also" section is ultimately a matter of editorial judgment", so I'll leave the decision to you. Epbr123 (talk) 02:20, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Have taken care of the non-breaking spaces, thanks. Risker (talk) 14:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

• Support—This is very well-written indeed. Since so much of the referencing is to a book by "Raymond Plante", it would be good to know who that author is—perhaps even a mention in the main text (Legacy?). If it's his second wife, RaymondE. If not, is it his brother? Tony (talk) 12:25, 26 March 2008 (UTC) PS Check Canadian spelling of "fibERglass". Tony (talk) 12:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the spelling tip, Tony; the brand name here is FibERglas, just to add to the confusion. The author of the primary source is, oddly enough, no relation to the subject. I was surprised at that too. Risker (talk) 14:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comments

Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 14:07, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

• • Could the notes come before the references and could the references be alphabetical by author please? Also, why a references AND a bibliography?
    • No, refs shold be above notes; it's confusing to have last name, page number before seeing the appropriate book.
      • To address the comment about references AND a bibliography: The references are just that, books that were used to reference the article. The bibliography is made up of books that Plante wrote or participated in writing; not all of them were used as references. The first edition of his goaltending manual, for example, is long out of print and a first edition is worth a fortune now in the hockey collecting world. Risker (talk) 13:30, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
  • What makes http://www.hockeygoalies.org/ a reliable site?
    • Just because you don't know a site doesn't make it unreliable.
      • You are correct that I don't know the site, but I did look it over and try to see what sources it used, who published it, etc. before asking what made it reliable. You'll note that I didn't oppose based on these comments, I merely ask questions. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
        • I'm not seeing any sources listed specific to the page. I'm not seeing that the author is a published author on the subject. Granted, the first reference to this page is corraborated elsewhere, but this site is the only source for the information that he was paid while playing for the factory team while the others weren't. (the site also says coach, not factory manager and says that the others weren't paid) If there are articles in the press that refer to the site as reliable that would help. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:56, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Likewise http://www.hockeysiteincanada.com/? (The "contact me" button on the home page is not exactly inspiring confidence)
    • I cannot find any information on sources for the information nor who is the author/publisher of the site. As above, any mentions in the press/news sites that this is a reliable source would help. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:56, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Also http://www.goaliesarchive.com/index2.html?
    • Same as above about sourcing and author/publisher. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:56, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
  • What makes http://www.losthockey.com/main.cfm a reliable site?
    • As above. There is nothing on the site that tells me who is the author or publisher. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:56, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
  • http://www.frameworth.com/hockey/players/jacques-plante.htm what makes this reliable?
    • I see that this company markets memorabilia, so it's probably somewhat reliable. It would be nice to see a reference to the actual book: Step by Step Hockey Goaltending: The Complete Illustrated Guide
      • I suspect this is a different reprint of Plante's book from the 1970s; can't verify much more about it so have not included it in the article. I note it is "published" almost 20 years after he died. Risker (talk) 13:30, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
  • The connor reference, is 21 the page number? If so it needs to be formated like the other references in the notes.
    • Removed.

All the sites check out (As mentioned above the checker doesn't like the Hockey Hall of Fame sites, but they are there fine) Ealdgyth - Talk 15:16, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I've taken a look at all of the site over again, and I'd say all of them are reliable. Feel free to ask a bit more pertinent questions about the sites and I'll see what can be done. Maxim_(talk) 19:00, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

• Time Ealdgyth, plz see this. Risker has books that he can use to replace problematic sources, but knowing him... it might take a day or four... ;-) Maxim_(talk) 23:50, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
  • That's fine. Take the time you need to get it right. The article has only been at FAC for six days, it's not a rush yet. I'd gladly help source things if I had anything at all on hockey. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:53, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

• All questioned reference sources have now been replaced with reliable sources. I've asked Maxim to just give it a once-over to ensure I didn't leave a duplicate lying around. Risker (talk) 05:49, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Everything looks great now. Thanks for putting up with me! Ealdgyth - Talk 14:07, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.