Talk:Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 May 2024

Remove "conspiracy theorist" from RFK Jr's attributes as this makes unproven assumptions about what the Democratic view of a conspiracy theorist is. If he is an anti-vaccination advocate, that is his position, and appropriate to add as an attribute. A conspiracy theorist, however, is a broad derogatory term used here to make Democrats believe he is not on their side. It would be fair to list his specific positions/beliefs on policies and world/national matters. Please maintain your non-political stance and remove that verbiage. 2601:40D:8000:B910:4C5F:C1CC:1ACC:5280 (talk) 17:34, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

No, according to many reliable sources (RS), he pushes many disproven conspiracy theories. Look up some of the RS found right after these words in the lead "and public health conspiracy theories". We document what RS say. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me)

"The Courage to Face COVID-19" is not a book by RFK, Jr.

"The Courage to Face COVID-19: Preventing Hospitalization and Death While Battling the Bio–Pharmaceutical Complex" is by John Leake and Peter A. McCullough. Not sure why it's listed as a notable work by RFK Jr. He isn't an author on it. That should be removed. Questionheir (talk) 18:39, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

After doing an internet search on that book, it appears that you are correct, Kennedy is not an author on it. Not sure why it was listed on this page, it has now been removed. A. Randomdude0000 (talk) 18:56, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 May 2024

3rd paragraph of this section. Change:

> wrongly claiming that all casualties of the Donbas War between 2014 and 2022 (about 14,000) were Russian civilians.

to:

> claiming that most of the casualties of the Donbas War between 2014 and 2022 (about 14,000) were Russians.

Why?

Fuller quote from the same source: "The Donbas region, which is 80% ethnic Russian — and Russians that were being systematically killed by the Ukrainian government ..."

Article currently states, citing same source, using a smaller portion of this exact same quote:

> wrongly claiming that all casualties of the Donbas War between 2014 and 2022 (about 14,000) were Russian civilians. He said that Russians living there "were being systematically killed by the Ukrainian government".

There is no indication of Kennedy stating what the Wiki article attributes to him. Regardless of whether his claims of "80% ethnic Russians" are correct, he did not "wrongly claim that all casualties are Russian". Not to mention a stark difference between ethnicity and citizenship, which are mistakenly conflated in this paragraph. The phrasing "Russian civilians" is also questionable and infers something that Kennedy didn't say(though probably meant, meaning that they were non-combatants) Conciseman (talk) 01:12, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: In fact, the source clearly presents the quote from RFK Jr. “We [the United States] put a new government in [Ukraine] that immediately makes a civil war against the Russian population of Donbas, bans the Russian language, kills 14,000 of them..." That claim is false, and indeed claims that all 14,000 he's referring to were Russian civilians. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:00, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, the freshly-added source does feature this quote. Thanks to whoever found and added it, as it does more clearly indicate the distorted perception [of Kennedy's]. Not just in this particular matter, but in the overall recap of the 2014-2022 events in Donbass. Conciseman (talk) 21:47, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

References

Neutral tone

This article discusses a controversial presidential candidate but does not adhere to Wikipedia's standards, especially in the introductory paragraphs.

"All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic."

1) It is advisable to avoid using loaded language such as "anti-vaccine activist" or "conspiracy theorist" at the beginning. Such terms can be perceived as judgmental labels. Instead, describe his positions objectively, for example, "has expressed skepticism about vaccine safety" or "has promoted theories questioning the mainstream COVID-19 narrative."

2) Focus on factual claims that can be sourced and attributed, rather than making definitive statements about what constitutes "misinformation." For instance, instead of declaring his group as "a leading proponent of COVID-19 vaccine misinformation," you could say something like "His advocacy group has made claims challenging the safety and efficacy of COVID-19 vaccines, which have been disputed by public health authorities."

3) Offer balanced coverage by including information about his background, qualifications, and stated motivations, not just presenting opposition viewpoints. This approach allows readers to form their own evaluations.

4) Use reputable sources that represent a diverse range of perspectives when attributing claims and viewpoints. It is important to note that even experts can have political biases.

In the 1968 election, Walter Cronkite's famous neutral delivery of news in relation to George Wallace serves as a suitable example. I recommend that this article maintain a more neutral tone, particularly in the introductory paragraphs. Wikipedia should remain impartial and not favor any specific political viewpoint. Mfrittman (talk) 15:26, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

The key part of the quoted policy is "all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic". The policy does not mean we whitewash things. The reliable sources call him an anti-vaccine activist and conspiracy theorist. EvergreenFir (talk) 15:29, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

When covering controversial topics or public figures expressing views that are disputed by mainstream sources, it is preferable to represent the claims objectively and attribute them to the sources making those claims, rather than using potentially loaded language or appearing to take a stance on the accuracy of the claims. The goal should be to inform readers about the existence of the controversial viewpoints without endorsing or condemning them through subjective characterizations. Mfrittman (talk) 15:56, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

We do represent the claims objectively. They are objectively false. Suggesting otherwise would be misinforming our readers. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:01, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Again, this is a lack of understanding of NPOV. NPOV does not mean that our articles have to come across is neutral. NPOV means that our articles have to reflect reliable sources. All suggestions you propose are not neutral as they cast doubt on vaccines and misportray his antivaccine activism in contradiction to RS. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:50, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

It is wise for Wikipedia to refrain from making declarative statements that could be perceived as taking sides prematurely. When it comes to the origins and response of COVID-19, while some have labeled certain perspectives as "fringe" or based on misinformation, the truth is that a complete understanding is still evolving. Credible sources have presented differing viewpoints that were initially dismissed by others.

Maintaining a neutral point of view entails presenting a range of prominent perspectives on such unresolved issues without prejudging their validity. Labelling positions as "fringe science" or "conspiracy theories" may amount to editorializing if it conflicts with how reputable sources are characterizing those views. Perceived "consensus" perspectives have been overturned by new evidence and analysis in the past.

In accordance with Wikipedia guidelines, it is advisable to use precise, unbiased language directly from reliable sources when discussing the various claims and allegations surrounding COVID-19. This approach avoids assuming which perspectives will ultimately be proven right or wrong in the future. Striving for neutrality means refraining from definitively dismissing views that, while currently contentious, are supported by credible sourcing. The objective is to inform, rather than advocate for a particular narrative.

Does this revised explanation encapsulate the essence of representing contentious, unsettled topics like COVID-19 from a neutral standpoint that seeks impartiality? I have tried to emphasize the importance of achieving balance and exercising caution when addressing divisive issues where the full picture is still emerging. Mfrittman (talk) 16:15, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

You are emphasizing WP:FALSEBALANCE. RFK Jr's views on vaccines are widely discredited. We reflect what reliable sources say, period. If reliable sources change what they say, then we change what we say. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:33, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the majority of these reliable sources reflect a specific political perspective. Should sources from other political viewpoints be deemed unreliable solely because they differ? Wikipedia’s role is not to take sides but to present balanced, verifiable information from a wide array of perspectives.

In the US, much of the mainstream media is controlled by a handful of corporations, each with its own interests. Some lean Democratic, others Republican, and both sides influence the content they produce. As a result, it's essential to consider the broader context and potential biases in the information we cite. Independent scholarly works and smaller news agencies might offer less biased reporting, which is crucial for maintaining Wikipedia's neutrality.

RFK Jr. is an environmental lawyer who has often challenged powerful corporations on pollution issues. It's worth noting that these corporations have significant resources to influence public opinion and expert commentary. While many criticisms of him are likely valid, we must be cautious of potential political agendas behind these critiques. RFK Jr.'s stances may conflict with the interests of established organizations, and this conflict could shape the portrayal of his views.

Some of his claims might be discredited, while others might not be, and it’s essential to acknowledge this uncertainty. Wikipedia should not become a platform for perpetuating any particular viewpoint, especially during an election cycle when political motivations are heightened. We should focus on presenting information in a balanced manner, reflecting a wide range of reliable sources without leaning into the language that could be perceived as biased.

I understand that many trust the mainstream media's perspective, but there's a slight possibility that Wikipedia could unintentionally mirror any biases present. It would be more appropriate to use neutral language and present all sides fairly. Just because multiple sources describe someone in a certain way doesn't mean Wikipedia should adopt that language.

By ensuring our content is presented without bias, we uphold Wikipedia’s standards and provide a resource that everyone can trust, regardless of their political views. Mfrittman (talk) 17:52, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

We've gone over these same exact arguments over and over again on this talk page. I'm not rehashing it anymore here with you. You can read above on this talk page and in the talk page archives to get caught up. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:14, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I understand that these arguments have been discussed extensively. However, the repeated nature of these comments suggests there might be ongoing concerns about the article's neutrality. My goal is not to debate political beliefs but to ensure that we uphold Wikipedia's standards for balanced and unbiased content. Let's make sure we are reflecting a wide range of reliable sources fairly. Mfrittman (talk) 00:18, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

the repeated nature of these comments suggests there might be ongoing concerns about the article's neutrality ... No. What it suggests a handful of single-purpose accounts, one-and-done IP editors, or those generally unfamiliar with Wikipedia policy trying to make an article reflect their own biases. Zaathras (talk) 01:14, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

↑ Exactly this. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:22, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Bingo ! Moxy🍁 01:41, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate your input. I recognize the value of upholding Wikipedia's principles and remaining impartial. To be clear, I am contributing to this talk page because I genuinely want to make sure that the article satisfies Wikipedia's requirements for impartial and balanced material.

I welcome you to examine my editing history, which is accessible to the public, in response to the assertion that these comments are solely coming from accounts with a specific aim or from people who are not familiar with Wikipedia policies. My past demonstrates my contributions to a wide range of subjects, with a primary emphasis on science and color theory. This proves that my account isn't exclusively focused on pursuing any certain goal.

By ensuring that the article gives a well-rounded and impartial view, especially in light of the various opinions on the topic, my goal here is not to represent personal biases. I think it's critical that we take the criticism seriously and try to improve the article's objectivity so that it complies with Wikipedia's guidelines. Mfrittman (talk) 05:35, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I am an uninvolved administrator. It is time to make an actionable proposal to improve the article or move on. What text should be added or removed? What source would support the change? Why should it be made? This is not a forum where thoughts about biases or anything else are exchanged. Johnuniq (talk) 07:16, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

It isn't easy to present an objective piece about Robert F. Kennedy Jr. because of his broad condemnation in the mainstream media. This critique needs to be acknowledged, but it's also important to recognize the existence of biases and work toward a more balanced and impartial analysis. Following Wikipedia's guidelines, my goal is that the article be considered fair by people representing different views. I will present a proposal with suggestions in the coming days. Mfrittman (talk) 18:33, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

my goal is that the article be considered fair by people representing different views This is impossible. Wikipedia guidelines demand that fringe ideas be put into a mainstream context without any false balance. Kennedy fanbois will never consider anything like that fair. It's their problem. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:36, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Neutral tone does not mean that the subject is presented in a positive light, but that the writing does not use value-laden language. There are many articles about criminals and truly evil politicians, such as dictators, that are written dispassionately without emotive language. Hitler for example was a mass murderer, racist, conspiracy theorist and anti-vaxxer who believed in quack medicine, yet his article uses none of these terms.

Opponents of RFK Jr. editing this article should consider that displaying a biased tone in writing about him makes readers question the reliability of the article. It's like listening to a Fox News Channel talk show host. If you agree with him or her, you like the tone because it authenticates what you already believe. But if you don't, then it turns you off. Ironically, by coming on too strong, the article actually helps RFK Jr.'s campaign. TFD (talk) 13:21, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

• However, the problem that many visitors to this page seem to have is that Kennedy is described as an "anti-vaccine activist and conspiracy theorist", they believe these descriptors aren't "fair" (or even that they're false, which is not true). Saying these things is not "value-laden" - being "value-laden" would be using descriptors that can be disputed. But these things are simply facts. This isn't an edge case - Kennedy and his organisations deliberately spread disinformation, as well as misinformation - they know these things are false. Incidentally, this is coming from someone who isn't even American and therefore couldn't care less how Kennedy does in the election. There may be "opponents" editing, but I would like to see evidence of that. Black Kite (talk) 14:06, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  It's fair and accurate to describe Osama bin Laden as a terrorist, but per Wikipedia policy of neutral tone he is not described that way because it is a value laden term. That doesn't mean the article condones his actions or that readers will be any less informed.

  Incidentally, would you or other editors vote for a "anti-vaccine activist and conspiracy theorist?" Or do you think it would be a good thing or at least not a bad thing for someone like that to control the world's most powerful army and economy? TFD (talk) 16:16, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  What sort of reasoning is that? We cannot follow what the reliable sources say about Kennedy because of Osama and Hitler and... because if people do not know he is an anti-vaccine activist and conspiracy theorist if the Wikipedia article does not tell them that, they may vote for him? --Hob Gadling (talk) 17:29, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

• That's ... slightly bizarre reasoning. I think you need to realise that some US voters would vote for Kennedy because he pushes views that they agree with. It is not the job of Wikipedia to suggest that, merely to point out whether (per reliable sources) those views are based in reality or not. Black Kite (talk) 17:48, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I did not say, "We cannot follow what the reliable sources say about Kennedy because of Osama and Hitler," I said that we do not violate neutral tone for people worse than Kennedy. I would be appreciative if you would not interject misleading ripostes that do nothing to further the conversation.

As you are aware, the vast majority of reliable sources do not label RFK Jr., they merely describe his statements and positions. That's because mainstream media, unless they have a stated editorial bias, try to avoid the appearance of bias. The same btw is also true of reputable encyclopedias and university textbooks.

I agree that the article should point out RFK Jr.'s views. But you can do that without using judgmental labels for the subject of the article. BTW not everyone who supports RFK Jr. support him because of his views, some see him as the lesser of three evils. If they come across an article written in an obviously biased tone, they may discount what it says. I feel the same way when I come across any polemical writing, unless I share the same beliefs as the writer. How likely are you to be persuaded by an article in the National Review for example? TFD (talk) 22:20, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

TFD, you're absolutely correct and have clearly articulated yourself and the issues with the article in its current form. It does not reflect the truth with the language used. 49.179.57.60 (talk) 13:47, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

References

You keep going on those weird tangents. As if it were our goal to influence the votes of readers and we need to fantasize about how readers will react to what we write. It is our goal to follow what reliable sources say, regardless of whether readers like it or whether it makes them vote for whoever.

And neither the Wikipedia article about Hitler nor the one about anyone else is a reliable source or a good model for this one. Unlike AH and ObL, Kennedy has not started a war or had anyone killed (unless you count those who died of measles because their parents did not vaccinate them after they listened to him), so, unlike AH and ObL, the untruths he spreads are his most relevant aspect. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:44, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Obviously I have not clearly explained myself because that is an inaccurate summary of my position.

This article, like all articles should present all the facts about the subject in proportion to their coverage in reliable sources and all the opinions published in reliable sources according to their prominence. At the same time the article should use the language typically used in reliable sources which avoid value laden classifications of people.

I chose the examples of other biographies to show that we can write about people worse than RFK Jr. without emotive and value-laden language.I don't understand how you draw the opposite conclusion, that neutral tone applies to murderers but not to people who have not directly killed anyone. Surely if we chose judgmental language, it would be for the worst people. TFD (talk) 16:18, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I am not saying that neutral tone applies to murderers but not to people who have not directly killed anyone. I am saying that both RFKJ as AH spread conspiracy theories but for AH, his murderous activities are more important, moving his conspiracy theories into the background and making his article a bad role model regarding that aspect. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:41, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 May 2024

Anti Vax is an absurd title, say pro safe vaccine, or vaccine activist and anti vax as a job is just incorrect, if you guys really want to put legit research which a encyclopedia is supposed to, fix something to what is true 2601:601:601:2930:71F7:5638:DABB:8133 (talk) 08:21, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Not done. Reliable sources disagree with your opinion. Reliable sources win. --Hob Gadling (talk) 08:25, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Split "Political positions" into separate page?

I made a similar suggestion on the Robert F. Kennedy Jr. 2024 presidential campaign page, which has a similar "political positions" section that is getting a bit lengthy - and has different information vs. the section on this page. Should this be spun off into a separate page, like it is for other political candidates. The section on this page can remain with a few paragraphs summarizing key positions, then linking off to the main article. Thoughts? Sk5893 (talk) 22:51, 22 May 2024 (UTC)