Talk:Kuki Rebellion of 1917–1919

No Anglo kuki war

Which news coming to highlight there was NO kuki Anglo war, how will this article shape. Wanted to here your opinion.

https://www.ifp.co.in/manipur/there-was-no-anglo-kuki-war-of-1917-1919-federation-of-haomee

https://www.morungexpress.com/four-naga-tribes-anglo-kuki-war-issue

http://e-pao.net/GP.asp?src=36..050823.aug23 KoubruNongpok (talk) 04:51, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

None of these are reliable sources for history.

There are 150 scholarly works referencing the term, almost as many as those for Anglo-Manipur War. If the Anglo-Kuki War didn't happen, neither did the Anglo-Manipur War (for which we have a page with that title!) -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:55, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Just a make up 150 scholarly works doesn't mean it happened. Are you saying that Indian government is wrong to reply that there was no Anglo Kuki War in the history of Manipur to an RTI? Sh4d0w s7r1k3r (talk) 11:19, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

As far as Wikipedia is concerned, the scholarly sources are WP:RS. Governments are not. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:38, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

150 scholarly articles by the same 3-4 writers, maybe 5 :) The lengths you go to, to defend the Kuki version of every Manipur/Meitei/Kuki related Wikipedia article and how that bias or COI is completely ignored, makes me lose hope in Wikipedia. SaintSinner01 (talk) 03:33, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Comparing Anglo Manipur war to Anglo Kuki rebellion is stretching too far, don't you think? Definition of war, "a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nati". Manipur was an independent kingdom, a nation on its own. Was there a Kuki nation that nobody in the world is aware of?ons SaintSinner01 (talk) 03:52, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Please avoid personal attacks. The term is relatively recent, as far as scholarly literature is concerned. That is why nobody has made a case for renaming this page. But, when peer-reviewed scholarly sources use a term, we do not engage in WP:OR to negate them. If you have valid objections, please submit them to a journal, not on Wikipedia. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:42, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Undue weight

Haoreima, this page is on the rebellion/war as the case may be, but not about the name "Anglo-Kuki War". Any pertinent information about the rebellion itself is lackng. Given that, a huge section on the controversies regarding the name is WP:UNDUE. Can you please reduce this section to 3-4 lines? Note especially that none of the people you have cited here are historians.

If you fail to do this, I will be obliged to delete it and rewrite it in my own fashion. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:40, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for informing me. I will try to rewrite it. Haoreima (talk) 15:42, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Bro! I think the article needs more content like the description of how the conflict was going on. How many people were killed, houses and properties destroyed, when, why, how, etc. If such are added so, then the unbalanced weight will be balanced atleast to some extend, I believe so. Meanwhile, I will try to summarize it as much as possible. Thanks. Haoreima (talk) 15:54, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

WP:HISTRS

Note all sources used for documenting history must be WP:HISTRS. Do not use web sites, newspapers, politician statements etc. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:41, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Bro! If possible, please replace the citation of book of Wouters, Jelle J.P. by another one. I am saying it because that very book is just another edition of the book "The Anglo- Kuki War, 1917-1919: A Frontier Uprising Against Imperialism During the First World War", already edited by two editors (Jangkhomang Guite and Thongkholal Haokip) and the real original first author is retired colonel Dr Vijay Chenji of the book titled "The Anglo-Kuki War 1917-1919".

I have seen many books' titles mentioning "Anglo-Kuki war" and most of them are written by authors with surnames like Guite, Simte, Shitlou, Haokip, Ralte, Kipgen, Gangte, etc. which are the surnames of Kuki-Chin-Mizo people (Zo people). So, I consider their works as local works. And when I found works of other authors, most of them are re-edits or reproductions of these works. Dr Vijay Chenji, and the two Kuki authors are currently facing a case under IPC. So, considering their books or the reproduction of their works (eg. that of Wouters, Jelle J.P.) is not authoritative enough, I believe so. Saying so doesn't mean works from newspapers and magazines are better. Newspaper reports are necessary only for the citation of information on the recent reports, or opposition or standing against of that or those works by other people or communities or government or governments. Haoreima (talk) 16:06, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

The Wouters citation is not a book. It is a book review of the Guite-Haokip book published in a journal.

I know there s a controversy about the Guite-Haokip book in Manipur. It doesn't matter to us. The book was published by a scholarly publisher, and it has had positive reviews in journals. It meets our requirements of WP:HISTRS.

The Chenji book is self-published or published by a vanity press. It is not a WP:RS. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:34, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

== There was No Anglo kuki war 1917-1919. == Infozenith.

The Federation of Haomee on Tuesday stated that there was no Anglo-Kuki War, 1917-1919 in Manipur and that there is no country of Kuki in Manipur. It said the state government should punish those who make false history of the state. Speaking to the media on Tuesday at Federation of Haomee office located at Dewlahland, federation spokesperson Y Shyamkumar said that there was an incident of the Khongjai people supporting Chingakham Sanajaoba by paying a tax of Re 1 instead of Rs 3 while he was fighting against Churachand (King). here is a document of clarification from 12 Khongjai (who were arrested during battle) and it is mentioned by the chief commissioner of Assam submitted to the secretary to the government of India, foreign and political department, vide letter number 631P political department, branch, Shillong dated June 27, 1919, Shyamkumar said. The responsibility of creating war was imputed to Sanajaoba and he was sent to Andaman Nicobar as a prisoner, Shyamkumar added. Non-incident Anglo-Kuki War has a centenary stone pillar at Kuki Inn and there is a pillar with the name of Chief Minister N Biren at Asian village, Saikhul block too, the spokesperson of FoH said, adding that there is a stone pillar of the Anglo-Kuki war in every Kuki village.He asked which government gave them permission to construct the Anglo Kuki war gate at Leisang village, from Moirang to Churachandpur. It should be clarified by the state government to the public, Shyamkumar demanded. He also said that the Federation of Haomee had submitted a memorandum to Union Home Minister Amit Shah about the Anglo-Kuki war on October 15, 2019 who replied to the Federation of Haomee and addressed the chief secretary of Manipur to break down all stone pillars of Anglo-Kuki war. Even MP Leishemba Sanajaoba had clarified that there was no Anglo-Kuki War, Shyamkumar said and drew the attention of the chief minister to look into the matter and punish all who claim wrong history. Manipurinfo (talk) 00:56, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Kuki people are the people that they can sleep without war this fact was pronounced from their written agenda and also the we manipuri candem to this Google Wikipedia verifiyer to look into the matter

respected verifier of this Google authority please be noted that while verification to some mater pleased do study the matter i.e. in this pages what u have verified kuki are the inhabitants of Myanmar. Then how they are indian or manipuri. Please be noted that war of bomb that they fire to manipur which we still cannot sleep, many of our brothers sister are death,rape, torture, kills. Have not you heard what we manipuries suffer please do make sense. With regards

A public for His Goodness 103.226.184.242 (talk) 18:01, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

War or Rebellion?

This article needs serious verification before projecting it as war against British Raj in India (Anglo Kuki War in the lead section including infobox) while even Anglo Manipur War is being questionable as war or rebellion based on analysis of what relation in political authority did British had prior to 1891 over Manipur (princely state)

• J H Hutton writes

  " The prevailing traits of self-importance and self exalhation among the Thadous is understood when it is remembered that for long they comnposed the 4th levies of Manipur State and were allowed to do very much as they pleased with all among whom they took up their abode. At times their ambition have got the better of them and they broke out in open rebelllion in 1918-1919"

• Pamberton writes

  " It has been asserted, that some of the principal chieftains of the southern or Kookee tribes, could raise a force of 8,000 men ; but this we may safely pronounce to be an exaggerationthe mutual distrust, which has been before - -alluded to as existing among them, is wholly incompatible with the unity of feeling by which such a force could alone be assembled. For purposes purely defensive, a body of from five to six hundred men might be collected ; but when -the limited extent of their cultivation, and the restlessness which characterises all savages, are considered, it is evident that even for self-defence, it is highly improbable, they could long be kept together. Small parties of from 10 to 30 men, have however frequently made incursions into the border villages along the line of frontier, and in Cachar, whole tracts of fertile country were, up to a very recent period, deserted,from an apprehension of these attacks. The plunder of.property is less the object of the marauders than the acquisition of heads, which are considered essential to the due performance of the funeral rites of their vjllage chieftains, and to obtain which, they will undertake long and difficult journeys,and remain concealed for days together in the jungle bordering on the different lines of communication, between distant villages ; they spring on the unwary traveller, decapitate him in an instant, and plunging into the forests, are far on their way home, before the murder becomes known in the village of the miserable victim

• R Brown writes

  The Khongjai tribes of Kukis -This important tribe of kuki has only in comparatively recent times come under the rule of Manipur in its entirety.
  Since the Khongjais came under Manipur,they do not form large hunting parties that they used to

  .

All this historical books shows the dubious nature of exaggerate in using the term anglo kuki war by kuki historians while describing the rebellion against force recruitment of soldiers .The administrative power kuki village chief had were also not independent one. 🐲 ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯪ ^{ꯋꯥ ꯍꯥꯏꯐꯝ (talk)} 09:30, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Luwanglinux, it is not the "Wikipedia way" to question peer-reviewed scholarly sources based on our own opinions, or even administrator reports of an involved party (the British). I suggest you read the scholarly sources. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:25, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Kautilya3 Isn't the book authored by Robert Lunkhopao a WP:OR has this book been reviewed!? Specially the strength of British Raj used to suppress need to be verified from other WP:RS and you even put an arbitrary notice on my talk for deleting this unverified claim !?🐲 ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯪ ^{ꯋꯥ ꯍꯥꯏꯐꯝ (talk)} 12:14, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

It is a chapter in a book published by Routledge, a reputed international publisher of scholarly works. I don't know what you mean by "verified" and what you mean by "WP:OR". It seems that you don't understand the meaning of the terms you are using. But you are required to understand them as per the ARBIPA contentious topics regimen. I suggest you refrain from putting half-baked comments here without understanding Wikipedia policies. That would be considered WP:disruptive editing. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:05, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Ok One last question would every publication from Routledge or similar publishers (reputed international publisher) no matter what the content is or who the writer is, be usable in lead section like this article.!? You have removed contents when I used works of Manipur author before in other Manipur related articles so its confusing to me. Since then I only use source I find from JSTOR. 🐲 ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯪ ^{ꯋꯥ ꯍꯥꯏꯐꯝ (talk)} 14:58, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Routledge is an academic publisher. That means that it publishes books by established scholars, and it also gets them peer-reviewed by other established scholars. There are three or four such private/commercial academic publishers but there are many university press publishers. They all work the same way, and are counted as reliable secondary sources.

In addition to reliable, we also have the WP:NPOV requirement, which means we are obliged to represent the "consensus" view among all the reliable sources. If there are disagreements among the RS, we may need to dig deeper and understand the nature of disagreements and figure out how much weight to give each viewpoint. The WP:NPOV policy is very long and intricate, and we only learn through experience how to apply it. Scholars are not entirely immune from poliitical and ethnic compulsions/biases, and such biases proliferate in contentious topic areas, e.g., Kashmir conflict. Book reviews, citation counts, and knowing the reception of the source among other RS would need to be considered. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:10, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Kautilya3 Also I was not trying to disrupt edit, this topic is full of controversy and the use of term Anglo Kuki War seems dubious none of the British records mentioned any war against Kuki. Here is what you have written yourself on Anglo-Manipur War talk page

Some newish editors started contesting whether it was a "war" or a "rebellion". It is not easy to make a decision. The Manipuri sources are pretty much unanimous in calling it "Anglo-Manipur War", a term that they made up themselves, while the British sources have used terms like "expedition" or "punitive expedition".

I see every kuki sources are also very unanimous in calling it "Anglo Kuki War which is a term they made up themselves while British sources used the term rebellion 🐲 ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯪ ^{ꯋꯥ ꯍꯥꯏꯐꯝ (talk)} 23:44, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

But this page is not titled "Anglo-Kuki War". So it is unclear what you are complaining about. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:27, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

This page is using "Anglo Kuki War " in the lead infobox section which is a misleading one also the controversial data of British force used and casualities, there are still not any peer reviewed data for this claim. I also fail to see a london gazette or british record mentioning this data.If you have copy of British record of this data beside the ones claimed by Kuki historians themselves,share it 🐲 ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯪ ^{ꯋꯥ ꯍꯥꯏꯐꯝ (talk)} 05:39, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

• Is it your opinion that the term is "misleading", or do you have a WP:RS for it?
• I have already mentioned that everything published by Routledge is "peer reivewed". If you have a problem with that, please take it to WP:RSN, but do not repeat that here again and again.
• You are also not permitted to label sources with terms such as "Kuki historians". If and when the admins look at this conduct, they will take serious exception to it.
• I have already referred you to WP:SOURCETYPES, which does not tell you to ask for London Gazette or British records. Please make sure you thoroughly understand what type of sources are used for Wikipedia, and ask me or at the WP:Teahouse if you have any questions about it.
• In any case, the majority of the data in the infobox comes from this document, as cited in the Guite & Haokip volume.

BL, AAC, IOR&PP, IOR/L/MIL/17/19/42: 1919: ‘Despatch on the Operations Against the Kuki Tribes’ Macquoid to Keary, 27 April 1919, Appendix – II & III. See also Shakespear 1929: 236–237.

I hope this is the end of this particular discussion. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:24, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

References