Talk:Avram Grant

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About his links to Poland[edit]

Someone removed that part saying he is Polish-Israeli claiming, quote "passport is not the same as nationality"... Well, in Poland you can only get a passport if you are Polish, i.e. if you have Polish citizenship and Polish passport is its confirmation. Avram Grant's nationality was confirmed as opposed to... "granted". He is a naturalized citizen. His family comes from Mława so he had his right to have his Polish citizenship confirmed and he received his passport. The passport thing had significant coverage in news and that's why it's specifically mentioned. Therefore Avram Grant is Polish-Israel. I know he used this only as a tool to have a passport of an EU country but technically and formally he has Polish citizenship and he is a Pole (with dual citizenship, obviously). Ptok-Bentoniczny (talk) 23:25, 19 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is getting ridiculous. Why are some people butthurt over his heritage and keep removing "Polish" from the article? Let's get things straight.

  • His parents were Polish
  • His citizenship/nationality was confirmed by state authorities. He wasn't naturalized. Polish state recognized his rights to being Polish since birth. As it happens with many people with Polish heritage. Footballers like Damien Perquis or Ludovic Obraniak had the same story - they don't live in Poland, they don't speak Polish but they were recognized as Polish, got their passports and now they are Polish
  • He himself stated he feels to be a Pole. Courtesy or not, he said that and it's sourced in the article (as everything I'm writing here).

In this article http://www.sport.pl/pilka/1,65080,20235177,byly-trener-chelsea-avram-grant-odebral-polski-paszport.html it's written he said he wanted to support Polish national football team during Euro 2016 "as a Pole".

So he is Polish too now. If you have a problem with that, I'm afraid you just have to deal with it. If he got it, and is fine/proud of it, and has official documents given to him, there is no reason to deny it. Ptok-Bentoniczny. user:Cliftonian specifically - are you a Poland-o-phob? if you have a problem then explain it here. I provided arguments and reasoning behind my edits. You can't just come and cut it out because you are a hater (talk) 21:27, 25 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Polish-Israeli" in opening sentence[edit]

The editor Ptok-Bentoniczny is insisting on describing Grant in the opening sentence as "Polish-Israeli" on the basis that he holds dual nationality. ("You gotta deal with it", he says in an edit summary.) To me this goes against policy at WP:OPENPARA, where we say the nationality given in the first line should be that relating to how/when the person became notable. In Grant's case this is Israeli, surely?

To be absolutely crystal clear, this is not me trying to deny that Grant is also a citizen of Poland. It is me saying that since the vast majority of his personal and professional life has been in Israel or as an Israeli person, that is the better descriptor for the first line. What do you guys think? Cheers, —  Cliftonian (talk)  12:08, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the problem is that he wasn't "naturalized". He was Polish by birth from Polish-Jewish parents. The documents he got was just confirmation of the fact he's always been Polish. The same method how Damien Perquis or Ludovic Obraniak got their Polish documents. They never lived in Poland or they don't speak Polish and Perquis is Polish by grandparents (and Grant is by parents being born in Poland)... Now Grant is a Ghana coach - that's notable. And he identifies as a Pole, he said that directly. As for "you gotta deal with this", I get a feeling some people here try to deny his nationality right now for the sake of... I don't even know what but it seems some people have a problem with this and try to do everything to deny it. Look, he was born Abraham Granat. Granat is a Polish word and surname. While he didn't necessarily identify with Poland before, now he does. Being a Ghana coach is notable enough, right? And now he formally counts as Polish. So why would you make him "Israeli only"? I didn't plan to make a big deal out of it...

While he used to be known as Israeli only, now he is working at a notable position while also being proud of getting his Polish documents. So what's the problem? Ptok-Bentoniczny (talk) 21:44, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Ptok, thanks for writing back. Just to be clear, I am not proposing to make him "Israeli only". I am talking about the first line, the opening sentence, not the whole article. Google Avram Grant right now and you will see that without exception he is described as an Israeli football manager. That is what he is known as by the whole world so far as I can see, apart from this English Wikipedia page (even the Polish Wikipedia describes Grant in the first line as 'Israeli' only).
The fact that he now has the papers confirming his Polish citizenship in addition to that of Israel do not change what he is notable as or how he became notable. For a similar example consider Gilad Shalit, citizen of France through family as well as of Israel, but undoubtedly known as an Israeli person and described as such in the first line, with the French citizenship noted elsewhere in the article. It isn't directly relevant to his notability, so per WP:OPENPARA it doesn't go in the first line.
The two players you cite above are different cases from Grant as they actually play football for Poland, and thus are notable for this purpose as Polish international footballers. The facts of place of birth and rearing, language etc aren't really relevant in this context. Indeed in their cases the opposite becomes true—I presume they are French citizens as well as Polish, but their notability as sportsmen is firmly as Polish. I hope this makes sense?
To be clear, I am not acting here out of any kind of 'anti-Polish' nonsense, I am not that kind of person. Cheers, —  Cliftonian (talk)  22:08, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Polish Wikipedia says in the first line that he has a Polish citizenship. Also, it'd be grammatically wrong in Polish language to use a literal translation of Polish-Israeli when talking about a person. As for Ludovic Obraniak and Damien Perquiz, they became notable players as French citizens. Then they got their documents granting them Polish citizenship formally :P You also mentioned that google calls him Israeli only... Well, duh - he got Polish documents just recently. But since now we now he feels to be Polish too then that should be relevant. I find the current status slightly more important to describe a living person. Ptok-Bentoniczny (talk) 01:03, 28 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't speak Polish, but so far as I can see the Polish-language article says something like "is an Israeli football manager who also has Polish citizenship". This isn't quite the same thing as what we have now in the English article. How about we change to a similar kind of wording to that and leave it there? Something like:
... is an Israeli football manager. Grant has spent the majority of his career coaching and managing in Israel, winning a number of national league and cup victories with different teams, and also managing the Israeli national team for four years. He also holds Polish citizenship.
Then the Polish citizenship is still in the first paragraph, nice and clear for everyone, but isn't given the perhaps undue weight it currently carries in the first sentence. A fair accommodation? Cheers —  Cliftonian (talk)  10:29, 28 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, *I* think it's good the way it is now...you seem to be a nice guy so I don't wanna quarrel over it but I also can't get rid of a feeling that your proposition undermines his heritage and current status anyway :P Ptok-Bentoniczny (talk) 18:06, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You made it a very poor opening paragraph, Avram Grant is Israeli of Polish dissent, who later was granted Polish citizenship would be a better way of opening. Govvy (talk) 23:56, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Request for comment[edit]

Per the discussion above, should Avram Grant be introduced in his opening sentence as a "Polish-Israeli" or as an Israeli football manager? I would say the latter based on the policy regarding biographies' first sentences at WP:OPENPARA and the fact that his notability is entirely as an Israeli manager, notwithstanding that he has recently accepted a Polish passport as well. Ptok disagrees with me. What do you think? Cheers, —  Cliftonian (talk)  21:34, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

His parents were born in Poland and he is Polish by blood (i.e. he got his citizenship per request with no need for any process of naturalization) so it's not 1/128th Polish or something. Ptok-Bentoniczny (talk) 15:55, 30 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
His father came from Poland, yes, but his mother was actually from Iraq. —  Cliftonian (talk)  16:46, 30 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
So? Half-Polish can still be considered Polish. Your remark was racist. Ptok-Bentoniczny (talk) 10:20, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It was nothing of the sort. You said his parents were both Polish, I pointed out that only his father was. I would suggest you dial back the baseless accusations of racism, please. —  Cliftonian (talk)  11:11, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Israeli Born in Israel and never lived in or represented Poland at any level. Number 57 23:32, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Israeli - People love to circle jerk their own nationality whenever someone is 1/128th of it or whatnot. Usually, this seems to be Albanian editors who find that everyone 400 years back had a Albanian uncle or something. Avram is known as an Israeli, not known as Polish. Seems pretty set to me. - J man708 (talk) 00:36, 30 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • His parents, Polish Jews, lived in Poland so it's kinda more than 1/128th Polish lol — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ptok-Bentoniczny (talk • contribs)
      • Only his father has anything to do with Poland. His mother came from Iraq. —  Cliftonian (talk)  16:43, 30 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Israeli - the fact he is of Polish descent is irrelevant. GiantSnowman 08:01, 30 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Israeli - what is stated above. And the Polish descent bit added to the Personal life section. Govvy (talk) 13:29, 30 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: What's also funny is the citation used to say he is Polish actually describes him as Israeli! Govvy (talk) 13:32, 30 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Israeli - the Polish thing can be mentioned elsewhere in his bio if it is considered 'notable' (such as with Winston Churchill's being "honorary citizen of the United States"). Koncorde (talk) 14:03, 30 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's been almost a week and I think the above consensus is quite clear. I'll change the opening sentence now accordingly. Cheers everyone. —  Cliftonian (talk)  10:47, 4 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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