Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Vilyam Genrikhovich Fisher

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted Nick-D (talk) 10:38, 22 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Vilyam Genrikhovich Fisher[edit]

Nominator(s): Adamdaley talk

Previous nomination: here

I am nominating this article for A-class review on behalf of Adam, per this request on my talk page: [1]. The article is currently rated GA and was previously nominated for A-class, but withdrawn upon Adam's request. Adam has done quite a bit of work on the article since then and would like to receive feedback upon whether or not it qualifies for Milhist ACR. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 11:01, 27 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

~~Comments~~Support
- Technical
  - No dab links [2] (no action required).
  - External links all check out [3] (no action required).
  - Images lack Alt Text so you might consider adding it [4] (suggestion only - not an ACR criteria). Done
    - I've added this. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 10:52, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - The Citation Check Tool reveals multiple errors with reference consolidation (this is fairly minor housing keeping - not a major issue):
    - Andrew, (1999), p. 147. (Multiple references contain the same content)
    - Andrew, 1999, p. 175 (Multiple references are using the same name)
  - File:Young Vilyam G Fisher (1937).jpg might need a tag indicating why its PD in the US, although I'm not an expert in this field. Not done
    - Done Taken out image altogether. Adamdaley (talk) 05:30, 28 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - Prose - can be a little awkward in places so I have added some suggestions for its improvement:
    - "His parents, ethnic Germans from Russia, were revolutionaries of the Tsarist era, and had fled to the United Kingdom in 1901...", consider instead "Revolutionaries of the Tsarist era, his parents were ethnic Germans from Russia who had fled to the United Kingdom in 1901..."
    - "His father, Heinrich, a keen Bolshevik, whilst living in England took part in gunrunning, shipping arms from the North East coast to the Baltic states to help the proletariat...", consider instead "His father Heinrich was a keen Bolshevik and whilst living in England took part in gunrunning, shipping arms from the North East coast to the Baltic states to help the proletariat..."
    - "The Fisher family left Newcastle upon Tyne in 1921, to return to Moscow, following the 1917 Russian Revolution...", consider instead "Following the Russian Revolution the Fisher family left Newcastle upon Tyne to return to Moscow in 1921..."
    - "After the family's return to Russia in 1921, Fisher worked for Comintern as a translator, as his lingual fluencies included English, Russian, German, Polish and Yiddish...", consider instead "Fisher was fluent in English, Russian, German, Polish and Yiddish and following his family's return to Russia he worked for Comintern as a translator..."
    - "During his military service in the Red Army, 1925–1926, he was trained as a radio operator...", consider instead "He served in the the Red Army during 1925–1926 and was trained as a radio operator..."
    - This is a little informal to me: "In the view of Fisher's bosses in the KGB...", perhaps: "In the view of Fisher's superiors in the KGB..." (suggestion only)
    - Tense here could be improved: "Members of the network stopped cooperating, due to the tightening in security at Los Alamos, after the war...", consider: "Members of the network had stopped cooperating, due to the tightening in security at Los Alamos, after the war..."
    - A little awkward: "Whilst it is not known for certain where Fisher went or what he did, it is believed one place he travelled to was Santa Fe, New Mexico, the collection point for stolen diagrams from the Manhattan Project...", consider instead: "While it is not known for certain where Fisher went or what he did, it is believed he travelled to Santa Fe in New Mexico, the collection point for stolen diagrams from the Manhattan Project."
    - "However on October 21, 1952, a thumbtack was left on a signpost in New York's Central Park..." by whom? Not done
      - Done Expanded and added source. Adamdaley (talk) 03:33, 2 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - Tense here: "The real Maki was born in 1919, in the U.S. to a Finnish-American father and a New York mother...", consider instead: "The real Maki had been born in the U.S. to a Finnish-American father and a New York mother in 1919."
    - "Häyhänen prior to opening the coin misplaced it, either buying a newspaper or using it as a subway token...", consider instead: "However, prior to opening the coin Häyhänen had misplaced it, either buying a newspaper with it or using it as a subway token."
    - "preferring conventional", conventional what? Perhaps consider "preferring more conventional styles" or something similar.
    - "Whilst in Moscow Fisher expressed to his superiors his dissatisfaction with Häyhänen...", consider instead: "While in Moscow Fisher informed his superiors of his dissatisfaction with Häyhänen."
    - "the same location and using wrong radio frequencies...", might be reworded as: "the same location using incorrect radio frequencies."
    - "By early 1957, Fisher had run out of patience with Häyhänen and demanded that Moscow recall his deputy...", consider instead: "By early 1957, Fisher had lost patience with Häyhänen and demanded that Moscow recall his deputy..."
    - "Firstly he made contact with the KGB residency, receiving another two hundred dollars for his journey to Moscow...", consider instead: "Making contact with the KGB residency he received another two hundred dollars for his journey to Moscow."
    - This is too informal: "Häyhänen, upon his arrival in the U.S., was grilled by the FBI and proved very cooperative...", consider instead: "Upon his arrival in the U.S. Häyhänen was interrogated by the FBI and proved very cooperative..."
    - "During Fisher's detainment at the Federal Alien Detention Facility...", the facility has already been mention so it could be dropped altogether to avoid repetition. Consider: "During Fisher's detainment the FBI had been busy searching his hotel room and photo..."
  - To be honest the level of detail about field craft might not be required in a biography article, perhaps you might consider condensing it in parts? This is particularly so given the lack of success Fisher appears to have actually had as a spy. Not done
  - I wonder if the structure of the article cannot be improved. Its a fairly minor point but I think you might consider spliting the "Capture and later life section" into a "Capture" section and a "Release and later life", with the later incorporating the last two paragraphs of the article? (suggestion only)
  - The heading "In the Secret service" seems a little off to me, would something like "KGB service" work better? (suggestion only).
  - Overall, this article is not in bad shape but needs to be copy-editted. Pls have a look at my notes above and once you have done so I would be happy to have a read over it again. I hope this helps. Anotherclown (talk) 01:28, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - Adam. I've been bold and implemented the bulk of these comments so pls review my changes and feel free to revert / discuss any you disagree with. Once you have done so I will give it another read and possibly a light copy edit. Other than that the only thing outstanding is the issue of the image (needs a US PD tag I think). Are you able to have a look at that please? Anotherclown (talk) 12:50, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      - BTW I've marked the issues that are still outstanding. Most are not enough to stop me from supporting but I would be interested in your thoughts. Thanks. Anotherclown (talk) 12:53, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry. I was going to do the changes you recommended this weekend. I appreciate you doing what you've done and I'll do the rest in the next few days or over the weekend. Adamdaley (talk) 01:25, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No problems at all, when you're done I have another look. Cheers. Anotherclown (talk) 08:19, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am satisfied with the article now. Anyone wish to look over it? Adamdaley (talk) 07:07, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

G'day, Adam, good work with this article. Unfortunately Anotherclown is away for at least another three or four weeks on an exercise. I would like to review the article for A-class, but as I have been involved with it in the past (copy editing etc.) I probably can't review it due to a conflict of interest. I will ask some favours on your behalf to see if anyone is free to offer you their opinion. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 10:52, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hello again Adam, I got back a little earlier than expected so I've gone over this again. I have made a couple more changes so pls review to ensure I haven't changed your intended meaning. I am quite happy with the way this article has progressed, and all my points have now been addressed. There are still a few points raised by Ed and Ian which need to be actioned but I will gladly support once these are done. Anotherclown (talk) 14:17, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The majority of comments in this ACR appear to have been actioned now so I've added my support. Well done Adam. Anotherclown (talk) 10:55, 14 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

~~Comments~~
- The Early Life section is almost problematically terse to me. In one sentence he's 15, two lines later he's fluent in five languages. Are there any ideas of his personality or interests? I assume there isn't a great level of detail, but some kind of background would help.
- "...his parents were ethnic Germans from Russia who had fled to the United Kingdom in 1901." -- Any idea why they fled?
- "...before being accepted into London Universityin 1919." -- What was his area of study, and did he complete his degree?
- "...despite the accusation that his brother-in-law was a Trotskyite" -- this is the first mention that he might have siblings. Are any known? Could be included in the early life section.
- " Kayotis conveniently disappeared while visiting relatives in Europe." -- I'm not sure if this is loaded language, but please make it clear if he was somehow incapacitated by the KGB or if his name was used just because he had gone missing.
- The "KGB service" section could use breaking into a few subsections for better organization.
- " he knew that if he cooperated with the FBI, he would not see his wife and daughter again." -- Again this could use some adding in earlier in the article, even if it's just to say "During this time he married and had a daughter." That way it's less of a surprise to find out this late in the article.
- The photo in the "release" section needs a caption that clarifies who is who in the photo, including which of them is Fisher.
- Haynes ref is in Bibliography but not used.
- "West" should be moved from further reading to bibliography.
- A few lines or section indicating his honors and accolades might help, particularly if any of his military decorations are known, or more details about him being on the stamp featured in the infobox.

Just a few comments. Happy to support once they're addressed. —Ed!^(talk) 21:51, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just a small update in the last 48 hours. Progress is being done with the other changes you've suggested. Adamdaley (talk) 08:18, 9 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support Looking at the article now, I'm satisfied with the changes and now support for A-class. —Ed!^(talk) 16:57, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support ~~Comments~~

Date ranges: I've made the change in the lead but not anywhere else -- you only put spaces around dashes in complex date ranges, e.g. "5 March – 10 September 1954", not year-only ones like "1953–1955".
Over-linking: Countries don't need to be linked unless they're historical, e.g. Soviet Union makes sense but United Kingdom not really -- people don't tend to oppose an article at reviews on this basis alone but it is an example of over-linking. World War II, being so well known and so wide-ranging, is also not really necessary to link, nor are common/generic terms like spy. Finally, you may need to make some links more precise, e.g. in the lead, does New York mean the state or the city, i.e. New York City? Pls check this sort of thing throughout.
- ~~Still seeing overlinking and ambiguous linking, including the examples noted above. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:49, 18 July 2012 (UTC)~~[reply]
Citations: I'm not a hard-arse on formatting these as long as it's consistent within the article, however it is redundant to put a comma in front of the date when the date's in parentheses, e.g. "Hearn, (2006), p. 10." -- in fact you could omit the year entirely if you only have one work by the author, so it reads "Hearn, p. 10."
- This appears to have been actioned by Anotherclown. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:15, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Just as you don't need to cite something in the lead if it's cited in the main body of the article, so you don't need to cite things in the infobox if they're cited in the main body: examples of such redundant citing in the infobox include his birth date, and the first and second of his aliases (at least, I stopped checking after that) -- pls check for others.
- ~~Some of this done, but Martin Collins and Robert Callan are mentioned/cited in the main body, and so don't need citation in the infobox. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:49, 18 July 2012 (UTC)~~[reply]
"He served in the Red Army in 1925 and 1926 and was trained as a radio operator" -- bit confusing to me, was he trained as a radio operator for his 1925–26 Red Army service, or did he serve in the Red Army in 1925–26 and then get training as a radio operator?
- ~~Still not sure about the order in the rewritten sentence -- was he not trained as a radio operator before serving in the radio battalion? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:49, 18 July 2012 (UTC)~~[reply]
"In the spring of 1955, Fisher and Häyhänen visited Bear Mountain Park, and buried five thousand dollars, destined for the wife of Morton Sobell, a Soviet spy sentenced to thirty years in jail" -- this last clause reads oddly; can we say roughly when he was sentenced, e.g. "recently"?
~~"debauchery" is a rather old-fashioned and general term, can we be more specific, e.g. alcohol, parties, whatever?~~
"...a hollow shaving brush, cuff links and numerous "trick" containers including hollowed-out bolts" -- the significance of the cuff links isn't clear from this; were they hollow like the shaving brush?
~~Spotcheck of the one online source (CN5) revealed the following concerns:~~
- ~~CN5(i): Both article and source use the exact phrase "his former trusted espionage assistant".~~
- Other citations to this source look okay, however based on this I think you need to review your offline references and spend some time checking and if necessary recasting the article wording vs. the sources' wording.
  - Obviously I'm taking on good faith that you've checked that info from your book/offline sources is employed in the article accurately and without close paraphrasing. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:49, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Aside from the above, images, structure, level of detail, and now referencing/citations appear okay. Overall, an interesting and enjoyable read.

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:00, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm in the process of changing what is recommended. Adamdaley (talk) 04:09, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Many hours have been spent doing the changes. Even after midnight. Adamdaley (talk) 17:40, 14 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Completed. Adamdaley (talk) 16:20, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How many more people does it need to "support" it to become "A class"? Adamdaley (talk) 18:53, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Generally at least three. I can see most of the comments I made above have been actioned and I've struck those, pls see further comments on others. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:49, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Last changes done. Adamdaley (talk) 11:06, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ian Rose – Isn't it clear that he was in the Red Army in 1925–26 where he was taught to be a radio operator? Even prior to this he had an interest in basic radio's, while after the two years in the Red Army he was able to teach others and used radio's during World War II and his time in the United States. Adamdaley (talk) 02:14, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think it could be expressed more clearly but, in any case, I can see that you've addressed most of my recent follow-up points so let me have another read through the article, during which time I may copyedit a little more, and we'll see how we go... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 16:12, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, based on the latest changes and following my final copyedit, I'm happy to support -- well done. Just one last thing: I realised on my latest copyedit that we say "He was, however, dismissed from the NKVD in 1938" without having explicitly mentioned his membership of the NKVD. I know the Soviet intelligence apparatus had many names and layers so if he was in the NKVD by default through membership of some other organisation previously mentioned, fair enough, but we should make the connection clear. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 16:07, 20 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Adamdaley (talk) 09:29, 21 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.