Wikipedia:Deletion review

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Deletion review (DRV) is for reviewing speedy deletions and outcomes of deletion discussions. This includes appeals to delete pages kept after a prior discussion.

If you are considering a request for a deletion review, please read the "Purpose" section below to make sure that is what you wish to do. Then, follow the instructions below.

Purpose

Deletion review may be used:

  1. if someone believes the closer of a deletion discussion interpreted the consensus incorrectly;
  2. if a speedy deletion was done outside of the criteria or is otherwise disputed;
  3. if significant new information has come to light since a deletion that would justify recreating the deleted page;
  4. if a page has been wrongly deleted with no way to tell what exactly was deleted; or
  5. if there were substantial procedural errors in the deletion discussion or speedy deletion.

Deletion review should not be used:

  1. because of a disagreement with the deletion discussion's outcome that does not involve the closer's judgment (a page may be renominated after a reasonable timeframe);
  2. (This point formerly required first consulting the deleting admin if possible. As per this discussion an editor is not required to consult the closer of a deletion discussion (or the deleting admin for a speedy deletion) before starting a deletion review. However doing so is good practice, and can often save time and effort for all concerned. Notifying the closer is required.)
  3. to point out other pages that have or have not been deleted (as each page is different and stands or falls on its own merits);
  4. to challenge an article's deletion via the proposed deletion process, or to have the history of a deleted page restored behind a new, improved version of the page, called a history-only undeletion (please go to Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion for these);
  5. to repeat arguments already made in the deletion discussion;
  6. to argue technicalities (such as a deletion discussion being closed ten minutes early);
  7. to request that previously deleted content be used on other pages (please go to Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion for these requests);
  8. to attack other editors, cast aspersions, or make accusations of bias (such requests may be speedily closed);
  9. for uncontroversial undeletions, such as undeleting a very old article where substantial new sources have subsequently arisen. Use Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion instead. (If any editor objects to the undeletion, then it is considered controversial and this forum may be used.)
  10. to ask for permission to write a new version of a page which was deleted, unless it has been protected against creation. In general you don't need anyone's permission to recreate a deleted page, if your new version does not qualify for deletion then it will not be deleted.

Copyright violating, libelous, or otherwise prohibited content will not be restored.

Instructions

Before listing a review request, please:

  1. Consider attempting to discuss the matter with the closer as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision.
  2. Check that it is not on the list of perennial requests. Repeated requests every time some new, tiny snippet appears on the web have a tendency to be counter-productive. It is almost always best to play the waiting game unless you can decisively overcome the issues identified at deletion.

Steps to list a new deletion review

 
1.

Click here and paste the template skeleton at the top of the discussions (but not at the top of the page). Then fill in page with the name of the page, xfd_page with the name of the deletion discussion page (leave blank for speedy deletions), and reason with the reason why the discussion result should be changed. For media files, article is the name of the article where the file was used, and it shouldn't be used for any other page. For example:

{{subst:drv2
|page=File:Foo.png
|xfd_page=Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2009 February 19#Foo.png
|article=Foo
|reason=
}} ~~~~
2.

Inform the editor who closed the deletion discussion by adding the following on their user talk page:

{{subst:DRV notice|PAGE_NAME}} ~~~~
3.

For nominations to overturn and delete a page previously kept, attach <noinclude>{{Delrev|date=2024 March 28}}</noinclude> to the top of the page under review to inform current editors about the discussion.

4.

Leave notice of the deletion review outside of and above the original deletion discussion:

  • If the deletion discussion's subpage name is the same as the deletion review's section header, use <noinclude>{{Delrevxfd|date=2024 March 28}}</noinclude>
  • If the deletion discussion's subpage name is different from the deletion review's section header, then use <noinclude>{{Delrevxfd|date=2024 March 28|page=SECTION HEADER AT THE DELETION REVIEW LOG}}</noinclude>
 

Commenting in a deletion review

Any editor may express their opinion about an article or file being considered for deletion review. In the deletion review discussion, please type one of the following opinions preceded by an asterisk (*) and surrounded by three apostrophes (''') on either side. If you have additional thoughts to share, you may type this after the opinion. Place four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your entry, which should be placed below the entries of any previous editors:

  • Endorse the original closing decision; or
  • Relist on the relevant deletion forum (usually Articles for deletion); or
  • List, if the page was speedy deleted outside of the established criteria and you believe it needs a full discussion at the appropriate forum to decide if it should be deleted; or
  • Overturn the original decision and optionally an (action) per the Guide to deletion. For a keep decision, the default action associated with overturning is delete and vice versa. If an editor desires some action other than the default, they should make this clear; or
  • Allow recreation of the page if new information is presented and deemed sufficient to permit recreation.
  • Some consider it a courtesy, to other DRV participants, to indicate your prior involvements with the deletion discussion or the topic.

Remember that deletion review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the action specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate.

The presentation of new information about the content should be prefaced by Relist, rather than Overturn and (action). This information can then be more fully evaluated in its proper deletion discussion forum. Allow recreation is an alternative in such cases.

Temporary undeletion

Admins participating in deletion reviews are routinely requested to restore deleted pages under review and replace the content with the {{TempUndelete}} template, leaving the history for review by everyone. However, copyright violations and violations of the policy on biographies of living persons should not be restored.

Closing reviews

A nominated page should remain on deletion review for at least seven days, unless the nomination was a proposed deletion. After seven days, an administrator will determine whether a consensus exists. If that consensus is to undelete, the admin should follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Administrator instructions. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at the appropriate forum. If the consensus was that the deletion was endorsed, the discussion should be closed with the consensus documented.

If the administrator closes the deletion review as no consensus, the outcome should generally be the same as if the decision was endorsed. However:

  • If the decision under appeal was a speedy deletion, the page(s) in question should be restored, as it indicates the deletion was not uncontroversial. The closer, or any editor, may then proceed to nominate the page at the appropriate deletion discussion forum, if they so choose.
  • If the decision under appeal was an XfD close, the closer may, at their discretion, relist the page(s) at the relevant XfD.

Ideally all closes should be made by an administrator to ensure that what is effectively the final appeal is applied consistently and fairly but in cases where the outcome is patently obvious or where a discussion has not been closed in good time it is permissible for a non-admin (ideally a DRV regular) to close discussions. Non-consensus closes should be avoided by non-admins unless they are absolutely unavoidable and the closer is sufficiently experienced at DRV to make that call. (Hint: if you are not sure that you have enough DRV experience then you don't.)

Speedy closes

  • Objections to a proposed deletion can be processed immediately as though they were a request at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion
  • Where the closer of a deletion discussion realizes their close was wrong, and nobody has endorsed, the closer may speedily close as overturn. They should fully reverse their close, restoring any deleted pages if appropriate.
  • Where the nominator of a DRV wishes to withdraw their nomination, and nobody else has recommended any outcome other than endorse, the nominator may speedily close as "endorse" (or ask someone else to do so on their behalf).
  • Certain discussions may be closed without result if there is no prospect of success (e.g. disruptive nominations, if the nominator is repeatedly nominating the same page, or the page is listed at WP:DEEPER). These will usually be marked as "administrative close".



28 March 2024

27 March 2024

Brian Redban

Brian Redban (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

The last deletion discussion is over ten years old, and in that time Redban has continued podcast hosting and publishing, and is now the part-owner of the Sunset Strip Comedy Club. There are many sources covering his more recent works. (The previous closing admin has been inactive several years so I won't notify them.) SmolBrane (talk) 21:59, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Draftify. The deletion is old and there is a good chance the subject is now notable enough to merit an article. I'm willing to draftify this to see how it can be improved and brought up to acceptable standards. The main-space name is create protected anyway, so there's no way this article would appear in main space by itself unless a reviewer approves it. ~Anachronist (talk) 22:28, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Draftify. I'm happy leaving this in Anachronist's capable hands. Owen× 22:48, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Justin Jin (entrepreneur)

Justin Jin (entrepreneur) (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

This non-admin closure by Coookiemonster mentioning "No consensus has been made for the aforementioned areas, and given that there has been extensive discussion over two weeks and that no more votes have occurred in the past few days, a second RELIST will likely be a waste of time." is not reasonable. The right call would have been to relist the AfD for the 2nd time to get more policy based arguments, but instead, Coookiemonster closed it too soon. The article on Justin Jin has received over 800 views with a daily average of 40+, which is significant traction considering it doesn't appear as the first hit in a Google search. I believe many other editors would have placed their arguments if it were relisted. Jeraxmoira🐉 (talk) 11:04, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Relist. The Delete views may or may not have garnered consensus, but deletion was certainly a potential outcome, making this a BADNAC, especially for an editor who has been here less than three months. Owen× 11:32, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak relist this is clearly a WP:BADNAC as the result is a close call (especially where there are several valid outcomes) or likely to be controversial. evidenced by several valid keep and delete votes, along with the closer admitting the close was complicated and there is justification that is fairly evenly split between both sides. Second relists are very common. My !vote is only a weak relist because I agree that there is a strong possibility relisting will not sway consensus either way, citing the large attendance this AFD has already received. However, that is not a decision that should be made to a non-admin closer. It should be left to an admin, particularly one who has experience closing contentious discussions. Frank Anchor 16:03, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Vacate Crystal clear WP:BADNAC. Can probably be speedily relisted, or even vacated and re-closed by a competent administrator. SportingFlyer T·C 19:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist: An article controversially closed as "No consensus" while there was a clear assessment of probable "deletion". Pure situation of WP:VOTE and non assessment of argument by the closer. Just WP:BADNAC, and will require an admin closure. All the Best! Otuọcha (talk) 22:09, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I tried to advise the closer a few days ago to be more careful closing AFD discussions considering their relative inexperience, especially in administrative areas and I feel like my advice was ignored. Another incident like this and I think we might need a topic ban. If no advice had been given to the editor, I'd say this was just a well-intentioned mistake. But the fact that I told them not to handle "close calls" means, to me, that the editor doesn't listen to advice. This has happened before in AFDLand with other overly eager editors and it hasn't ended well. Let's hope this Deletion review gets the message across. No opinion on what should happen here as I very well may be closing this discussion if it gets relisted again and I don't want to be considered "involved". Liz Read! Talk! 23:49, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry to all, I should have been more careful. I think I will stop closing AFD in the future because this happened. I tried to look more close into Non-admin_closure after @Liz warned me but I got in over my head. — 🍪 CookieMonster 00:30, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

26 March 2024

Shi Xing Mi

Shi Xing Mi (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I am the person who originally created the article, as I am a student of Master Shi Xing Mi and work in media, and I also edited it with over 20 sources following the notice of deletion.

Master Shi Xing Mi has hundreds of international sources, from prestigious publications such as Forbes and NYP, to government institutions and large international corporations. He is the most quoted and published Shaolin Master globally, with 4 books published by the likes of Random House and Mondadori, as well as the Co-Founder of two international wellness and fitness companies with hundreds of employees.

Despite providing over 20 such sources in the Wikipedia article, as well as hundreds more being available to anyone with just a single Google search, a Wikipedia moderator deleted it citing "no independent sources". Without being sarcastic, I don't think Master Shi Xing Mi owns dozens of top international magazines and newspapers, global book editors, government institution and many other such sources. They are clearly impeccable independent sources.

The deletion is thus completely unfounded and arbitrary; furthermore, there are dozens of Wikipedia pages about living people who comparatively have a miniscule number of sources, yet are considered compliant. Oddly, Shi Xing Mi's own Master, Shi De Yang, has 1 (one) source which is his own website, yet it's considered acceptable. Shi Xing Mi, who by the way is mentioned in Shi De Yang's Wikipedia page, has hundreds of sources but is not acceptable.

Please advise. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.79.71.123 (talkcontribs)

  • Obvious Endorse. The DRV instructions should have pointed the appellant to REFUND_to_draftspace. Support draftification, but with no promise that this will lead to sufficient improvement for return to mainspace, but because draftspace is the right venue and forum to work through issues of sufficient sourcing. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:16, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse - The deletion was not arbitrary, and the close was correct. The appellant should be advised to register an account, and to ask for advice at the Teahouse about writing a biography of a living person. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:52, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse Clearly correct result of the deletion discussion. Given the COI here, I'm less willing to refund to draft space. SportingFlyer T·C 19:32, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yitzhak Reiter

Yitzhak Reiter (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

AfD discussion focused on notability and ignored that the page is supported by 0 independent sources. Furthermore, significant contributions were made to the page by a since banned COI editor. Though sufficiently notable, the page should be deleted per WP:TNT in my opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IOHANNVSVERVS (talkcontribs) This can be considered withdrawn by nominator IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 00:49, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse. Other than the appellant, who was the AfD's nom, views were unanimous to keep, and it was obviously closed as such. Yes, participants focused on the subject's notability, exactly as they should. Source independence was addressed in the AfD by SportingFlyer. I'd like to remind the appellant that per WP:NEXIST, notability is determined by the existence of sources, not by the state of sourcing in the article. Also, we don't delete an article just because a banned COI editor contributed to it. The WP:TNT essay is not a deletion policy. If you have trouble creating a new version of the article while the old one is in place, go edit the new version in draftspace or offline. I think the appellant is being disingenuous about the "starting over" part of WP:TNT, as they clearly have no intention of improving the article, and are only interested in removing it. Owen× 11:16, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If I'm allowed to reply here: I personally have no intention of recreating the page if it was deleted, but other editors would have the opportunity to do so. I considered trying to improve the article instead of requesting its deletion but I didn't have enough interest to do so. If this deletion request fails then I will find RS and I'll reduce the article, probably to a stub, with information only taken from whatever one or two RS I can find. Would that be the best way forward in your opinion? Also, I don't understand how an article can be allowed to exist with no reliable sources. or are the Yitzhak Reiter sources considered valid RS for this article even though they lack independence? Thank you, IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 11:41, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Also, I believe I've misunderstood WP:TNT and clearly I am rather ignorant of AfD policies. If this is an obvious keep then you can consider my nomination for review to be withdrawn. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 11:42, 26 March 2024 (UTC) Amended 11:49, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @IOHANNVSVERVS: WP:TNT is very, very rarely used to completely delete a page. Usually it means the subject is notable, but the content on the page needs to be completely rewritten. I think it's close to the case here, so I wouldn't be afraid to cull anything that wasn't written neutrally. I'd close this as withdrawn as well, but I participated in the AfD. SportingFlyer T·C 12:55, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, I misunderstood WP:TNT and only now am realizing the significance of AfD is not cleanup.
    You mention culling anything that wasn't written neutrally, but doesn't everything that isn't sourced need to go? I plan on finding one or more RS and basically rewriting the article leaving it a stub. Is that the best way forward?
    - IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 13:03, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @IOHANNVSVERVS: It doesn't need to be a stub per se, but I would support those actions. SportingFlyer T·C 13:27, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    No worries; many here mistake WP:TNT for a deletion policy, when it actually is an essay about editorial preferences. I've stricken out my comment about your perceived intentions. Owen× 21:03, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @OwenX, I appreciate that. It's totally understandable you would have gotten that impression.
    I've overhauled the page. Any feedback would be appreciated.
    @SportingFlyer also.
    - IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 21:06, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Problem now is you have to go back in and add references. SportingFlyer T·C 23:48, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not sure what you mean. I added two sources to the article. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 00:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse - The discussion was quite clearly a keep with several noting the article needed significant improvement. -- Whpq (talk) 11:20, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. The content is not contrary to policy. The claims about this living person made do not seem like contentious claims. There can always be a consensus to keep a page such as this one, and there was a consensus to keep this page.—Alalch E. 00:36, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse if this is still pending. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:23, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion We don't do unsourced BLPs. Let alone any COI issues, that alone is enough. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:49, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

25 March 2024

John Paczkowski

John Paczkowski (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (article|XfD|restore)

unsupported and inaccurate

Paczkowski continues to be very well known and a wildly important journalist. He's interviewed Apple CEO Tim Cook and broken all manner of news about Apple and other big tech companies.

His reporters have won pretty much every award in the business (Livingston, Polk, Pulitzer, Mirror, SABEW). He's completely resurrected Forbes tech reporting, which has led the industry on TikTok reporting: https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilybaker-white/2022/11/28/tiktoks-china-problem/?sh=550c549c1ee4

Announcement: https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbespr/2022/05/26/forbes-names-john-paczkowski-executive-editor-of-innovation-and-technology/?sh=218988244539 Buzzfeed Archive: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/author/johnpaczkowski Record Kara Swisher announcing Paczkowki's column: https://www.vox.com/2014/4/28/11626138/john-paczkowskis-back-with-daily-codered-column-on-recode Paczkowki's allthingsD archive. He was Kara Swisher and Walt Mossberg's first editorial hire: https://allthingsd.com/author/john/index.html Tim Cook interview: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/johnpaczkowski/twenty-minutes-with-tim-cook AirPods scoop: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/johnpaczkowski/inside-iphone-7-why-apple-killed-the-headphone-jack#


NOTE: This thread was origanally opened by AliceTheGoon. However, that user messed up the syntax. I am simply completing the request. NW1223<Howl at meMy hunts> 19:15, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse as the AFD could not be closed any other way being unanimous for deletion. A draft can be submitted through articles for creation. -- Whpq (talk) 19:51, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse The discussion was correctly closed, albeit could probably have been relisted - my first thought was relist but the AfD is five months old, so there's no point. However there are new sources to review. Unfortunately, none of the newly presented sources appear properly secondary to me. No issues if someone wants to try to create a new article in draft space using different sources to these. SportingFlyer T·C 19:52, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse the unanimous close of the AfD. There was no other way to close it, and we generally do not relist when views are unanimous and there are three or more valid participants. I'm still trying to parse what is "unsupported and inaccurate". The appellant, who joined WP three hours ago to file this malformed DRV, appears to be driven by something other than encyclopedic interest. With absolutely zero history of editing here, and a poor understanding of our notability guidelines, I think sending them to write a draft might be giving them false hope, and wasting their time and that of the AfC reviewer. That's not to say that a qualifying article about John Paczkowski couldn't be written, I just don't see the appellant, using the sources they cited, doing so. I don't like to WP:BITE newcomers, but when a newcomer's first edit on the project is to cast aspersions on AfD participants who dutifully did what we expect them to do, I tend to temper my expectations. Owen× 20:34, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse the close. A good-faith appellant should be asking about submitting a draft, but, as per OwenX, this editor will waste their time and that of the reviewers if they submit a draft. An editor with moderate experience may submit a draft, or may create an article subject to AFD. We shouldn't be asking questions about the close. I can see that two of the references dumped appear to be non-independent. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:37, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

22 March 2024

Second Kuomintang-Communist Civil War

Second Kuomintang-Communist Civil War (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I believe the administrator wrongfully considered that a consensus had been reached. Below are the reasons:
1. There were major edits after the first few opinions were put forward, which could nullify the reasons supporting a merge, redirect or draftification.
2. Some of the questions raised during the AfD discussion are yet to be answered, let alone reach a consensus.
3. The administrator used the words "seems" and "lean" in the explanation, which indicated that the current discussion could not reach a clear conclusion. So, further discussion might be needed.
GoldWitness (talk) 20:33, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse as a reasonable outcome. No solid case was made for why this needed to be a separate article. Star Mississippi 01:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse well reasoned close. There was consensus that there should not be a standalone article. With no consensus on how the article should be handled (delete, merge, redirect), OwenX selected the option that allows for the most editorial flexibility moving forward. Frank Anchor 02:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. After one relist with some, but not much, additional comment, it makes sense to "bite the bullet" and assess consensus from the discussion as it stands. I agree with Owen× that a rough consensus exists not have a separate article. Exactly where and what to merge are less clear, but nothing prevents continuing discussion on the appropriate article talk pages. Eluchil404 (talk) 03:45, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse There was clearly not a consensus to keep the article at the point of the close, it was actually a fairly well attended discussion. SportingFlyer T·C 09:32, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse per others. It's normal that there are some unanswered questions and for AfDs not to have a completely clear outcome. Nothing is ever perfect. The standard is reasonableness.—Alalch E. 15:58, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse - It is often sufficient for the closer to find a rough consensus rather than going through additional relists to try to get a better consensus that might not be there. This was such a case. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:16, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is going to be a massive "endorse", so at first I thought it needless for me to pile on, but I see that there are three limbs to the nominator's argument and in a satisfactory DRV, all three should be answered here. The nominator deserves a full explanation. I'll attempt that as follows:
    1) Imagine if we did restart the AfD or reset the count after a major edit. What would happen then? Well, people who didn't want their article deleted could keep doing major rewrites, and they would. For that reason, we ask AfD participants not to evaluate the article as it currently is, but rather to decide whether there should be a separate article with this title. A "delete" or "merge" is understood to mean "no article with this title should exist". So the community will support OwenX on the first limb.
    2) Imagine if we didn't close a discussion until all the questions were answered. What would happen then? Well, people who didn't want their article deleted could keep asking questions, and they would. For that reason, we don't require AfD participants to answer questions. So the community will support OwenX on the second limb.
    3) Closes should be honest, truthful, and use natural language. Sometimes a discussion doesn't reach a slam dunk obvious conclusion but rather, the closer needs to use their judgement to evaluate what the community is saying. In such cases closers use more hesitant words: they say things like "seems" or "lean" or "tend" or "on balance". This is normal. We can't wait for crystal clear, slam dunk consensus to emerge because the sheer volume of work AfD has to do precludes that; each discussion only gets a certain amount of community attention. This was a judgement call and the wording rightly reflects that. So the community will support OwenX on the third limb.
    I hope this helps and suffices to fully answer your objections.—S Marshall T/C 10:03, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. The close was appropriate. I don't even know what the unanswered questions from the discussion were or why they needed to be answered before the AfD was closed. If editors still believe we need a separate article titled Second Kuomintang-Communist Civil War, they can work on it in draftspace until it is an improvement over the corresponding section of Chinese Civil War. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 15:53, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. The close was clearly reasonable, even if consensus was a bit rough. EggRoll97 (talk) 00:27, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

21 March 2024

K. Annamalai (closed)

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
K. Annamalai (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I was reading up on the 2024 Indian general election and going through the Wikipedia maze of articles when I discovered that Annamalai does not have an article on Wikipedia. What was even more puzzling to me was that some other unknown Annamalai had a page, but the known Annamalai didn't have one. So I decided to investigate and tried to go through the entire history of the K. Annamalai page and all the disputes and discussions about the notability of the guy who is currently detailed, versus the guy who is not. I completely understand how the arguments brought forth by other Wikipedia editors could seem misleading to pretty much anyone who isn't from Tamil Nadu. As someone with a hopeful half-decent understanding of Wikipedia and its guidelines, and as someone from Tamil Nadu, I will attempt to put down my arguments to why the page K. Annamalai is not deserved by the subject of it, but instead is deserved by the other guy.

In the context of Tamil Nadu politics, there are two people known by the same name, K. Annamalai. The obvious differentiating factor betweem the two is the party that each Annamalai belongs to. One belongs to the AIADMK party while the other belongs to the BJP. So let me use acronyms to refer to each Annamalai; AKA - AIADMK K. Annamalai and BKA - BJP K. Annamalai. Currently, the page K. Annamalai is being used to represent AKA, but I believe it should be used to represent BKA. I will first attempt to debunk the notability of AKA and then attempt to prove the notability of BKA.

Taking a look at WP:POLITICIAN, it does says that "Politicians and judges who have held state/province–wide office" are notable. However it also says that "Just being an elected local official, or an unelected candidate for political office, does not guarantee notability". As someone from Tamil Nadu, it is very obvious to me that AKA falls under the latter criterion. But if I have to attempt to prove this to someone on the web who isn't from Tamil Nadu, the argument I have is that I cannot find a single news article written on AKA on the entire web. I'm not even sure if it's possible to find news articles on AKA because even searching for "AIADMK K. Annamalai" on the web only yields results about BKA. AKA is someone who held office more than 20 years back, but is completely irrelevant now because not only has no one heard of him in a long time, but even if anyone wants to read and find out about him, there is absolutely no way to. I'll be more than happy to be proven wrong if anyone can bring up the link to even a single news article written about AKA.

Now onto BKA. Before I attempt to prove BKA's notability, I need to state that I've gone through the history of the numerous attempts by a lot of editors to create the article on BKA. And after going through them, I will unequivocally acknowledge that all of the articles written previously were in almost complete violation of Wikipedia's basic guidelines. It appears there are 3 times that articles on BKA have been deleted on consensus after discussion

  • 1 - September 2020 - Reason - Not notable
  • 2 - May 2021 - Reason - Not notable
  • 3 - April 2023 - Reason - Not notable and Promotional

I agree with the consensus reached for all 3 deletions for those times. But BKA did start becoming notable at a certain point. But it's not easy for me to clearly define when exactly he became notable. However I certainly believe that BKA now falls under the criterion of "Major local political figures who have received significant press coverage" under WP:POLITICIAN as of today, and certainly deserves the page K. Annamalai more than AKA.

At the very least, the current page on AKA as it stands right now must be deleted to preserve the integrity of Wikipedia, so that people who're visiting the page expecting to read about BKA do not get confused, and assume that Wikipedia has incorrect information. Nirinsanity (talk) 20:26, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: thank you for the thorough and clear exposition, Nirinsanity. I can make a few observations here:
    1. You being from Tamil Nadu is irrelevant to our case, and comes across as an argument from authority. If the information is only available to people in Tamil Nadu, then it is not independently verifiable, and we can not use it here.
    2. We don't have to delete an article on one K. Annamalai to make room for an article about another K. Annamalai. We have over one hundred articles about different people named David Smith. If both K. Annamalai people are notable, we'll have an article about each one, under separate titles; see next point.
    3. If someone reaches the page about K. Annamalai (AIADMK politician) expecting to find an article about K. Annamalai (BJP politician), the first sentence in the article will clear their confusion. This will not break the "integrity of Wikipedia". We do not delete articles about notable topics just to avoid the possibility of such confusion. However, if we decide that both people are notable, we will add a "hatnote" that will read something like, "This article is about the All India Anna Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam politician. For the one about the Bharatiya Janata Party member of the same name, see K. Annamalai (BJP politician)." We do this type of thing here all the time. Even when it comes to Tamil Nadu politics, I'm sure there can be more than one K. Annamalai.
    4. I find it unlikely that after years of non-notability lasting until at least April 2023, BKA has suddenly attained notability, but it is certainly possible. If that's the case, I suggest we take another look at Draft:K. Annamalai (BJP politician), and see if the rejection was due to a confusion between the two people. Do all the sources there relate to BKA and not to AKA? Pinging @DoubleGrazing: to go over this with you. Again, the sources you add to that draft can be in Tamil, English, or any other language, but they must be accessible to users outside Tamil Nadu. If accepted, the article will be moved from Draft to main space, and the hatnote I described above will be added to both articles to prevent confusion.

Hope this helps! Owen× 21:21, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse keeping AKA (the nominator does not provide any argument for why the deletion outcome for BKA should be overturned, so I assume that will come in a future DRV). As a member of an Indian state legislature, AKA passes WP:NPOL#1, full-stop (Politicians [...] who have held [...] state/province–wide office, or have been members of legislative bodies at those levels). Curbon7 (talk) 21:42, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Curbon7 It doesn't matter to me whether BKA has an article or not, so let us even ignore BKA. If I have to prove my argument that AKA is not notable as per "Just being an elected local official, or an unelected candidate for political office, does not guarantee notability'" under WP:NPOL, please tell me, how can I go about it? Because that is the argument I'm trying to make here. AKA is not notable. I can't even find sufficient proof of his existence except for the two non-news references that are currently there on K. Annamalai. Nirinsanity (talk) 10:06, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Still open at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2024 March 13#K. Annamalai (I.P.S). I opposed listing at WP:DEEPER in last November's DRV, but enough already. —Cryptic 22:45, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse We don't delete pages on notable individuals because of confusion, we edit the page to clear up the confusion. SportingFlyer T·C 23:11, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @SportingFlyer As I enquired in another reply, if I want to prove my argument that AKA is not notable as per "Just being an elected local official, or an unelected candidate for political office, does not guarantee notability'" under WP:NPOL, please tell me, how could I go about it? Because that is the argument I'm trying to make here. AKA is not notable. I can't even find sufficient proof of his existence except for the two non-news references that are currently there on K. Annamalai. Nirinsanity (talk) 10:08, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Nirinsanity: If you held state office for five years, there will have been something written about you. If you're an unelected candidate, you have to be "otherwise notable." I do not know Tamil, I had to use Google Translate, but perhaps [1] is one of the articles you're looking for? SportingFlyer T·C 10:54, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I have added the content from that source, as well as another I found (the assembly's Who's Who for that session [2]), which buff the article out to be more than just election stats, now definitely surpassing WP:NOPAGE. Curbon7 (talk) 11:28, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Curbon7 @SportingFlyer Alright frankly I'm amazed at how you two found these sources, because I couldn't find anything on him. I'd be really grateful if you can enlighten me on what is the method you generally follow to find references on a subject, especially considering that these citations are in a language that you don't even know. I now stand conflicted on one of my original arguments, that AKA is not notable.
    However, my second argument that BKA is notable per WP:NPOL#2 - "Major local political figures who have received significant press coverage." - is still valid, and I will attempt to bring into existence the article on him. The Draft:K. Annamalai (BJP politician) is quite visibly in a tragic state right now. I will see if I can give it some NPOV treatment and make it read like an actual Wikipedia article. Nirinsanity (talk) 12:16, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The AKA politician has an article in Tamil, so I translated that article, and then figured out the pattern which matched his name and the pattern which matched the constituency and then searched for his name and the name of his constituency in Tamil. First search engine gave me nothing, second search engine found the article on him. SportingFlyer T·C 19:52, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse, speedy close, and list at WP:DEEPER. Enough now. Stifle (talk) 09:03, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy close and topic-ban appellant under WP:NOTHERE. I originally assumed good faith in my attempt to help the appellant, but their last comment here clearly shows they are here for political reasons, not encyclopedic ones. Listing at WP:DEEPER may also be a good idea. Owen× 11:50, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @OwenX I've been here as an editor on Wikipedia for more than 14 years now. Please trust me when I say that the sanctity and integrity of Wikipedia matters more to me than anything else. I'd rather not state this on the record, but if it makes a difference, I'm politically as far away from BKA's ideology as I could be. I hope that clarifies that I'm not here for political reasons. Nirinsanity (talk) 12:29, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse & speedy close I'm assuming it's this AfD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/K. Annamalai we're discussing here? That closed as unanimous keep, entirely appropriately as the subject passes WP:NPOL unequivocally. This review motion seems to be based on the incorrect interpretation of NPOL, mistakenly equating state-level legislators as 'local politicians', and on the equally incorrect notion that there can only be one K. Annamalai article in Wikipedia. I see no reason to overturn the close. (And to add on a personal note, I really wish this seemingly never-ending Annamalai malarkey would end. I've already had to pursue the matter at ANI, SPI, and possibly elsewhere, and now can add DRV to the list. Starting to lose the will to live here...) --DoubleGrazing (talk) 12:03, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@OwenX Thank you for your points. I originally disagreed with a few of your points, but after discussing with the other editors in this thread, I now completely agree with all of your points. I will see if I can attempt to make the current Draft:K. Annamalai (BJP politician) more neutral and read like an actual Wikipedia article. Nirinsanity (talk) 12:19, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endose, speedy close, list at DEEPER: as far as I can tell, the problem here isn't the aubject of the current article. Confusion concerns have been addressed above, there's no reason to delete the current article. The subject of the draft article has seen numerous postings here and there's already instruction that it has to recieve delrev for approval: so let's require that a substantially new draft that satisfies GNG be brought (without mentioning the current article or confusion concerns) and allow all future review requests that don't meet that threshold be speedied here, such that we don't continue to disrupt the mainspace article as it stands. microbiologyMarcus [petri dish·growths] 14:05, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse Nothing for us to do here, and I commend OwenX for the efforts to explain how disambiguation works among similarly-named persons. Jclemens (talk) 22:02, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse This is the latest attempt of politically-motivated POV pushing to remove an article about a former state legislator purely to replace it with an article about a politician from another party of the same name. A blatant abuse of process and in fact an abuse of Wikipedia. AusLondonder (talk) 08:54, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @AusLondonder If you really considered yourself a believer in the principles of Wikipedia, you would've assumed WP:GOODFAITH. I don't how some of you just assumed that I'm politically motivated. I followed due process while opening this deletion for review. I haven't made a single edit to any of the Annamalai articles, draft or mainspace, in the 14 years that I've been an editor here. And I even changed my mind about this very review when the other editors here put forth their arguments. Nirinsanity (talk) 10:59, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I am responding to your proposal. You said "I will attempt to put down my arguments to why the page K. Annamalai is not deserved by the subject of it, but instead is deserved by the other guy." You also said "At the very least, the current page on AKA as it stands right now must be deleted to preserve the integrity of Wikipedia" - you were literally advocating for overturning a months-old AfD closed as unanimous keep to delete an article about a state legislator so the page could be given to someone from another side of politics. It might not be your intention, but any reasonable person would see that as politically-motivated. AusLondonder (talk) 11:34, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

Where is Kate?

Where is Kate? (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Insufficient weight given to WP:BLP concerns compared to a !vote up / down count. Simonm223 (talk) 16:30, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Just to clarify I'm seeking to relist the deletion discussion so that we can give proper weight to the BLP concerns that permeate this article. Simonm223 (talk) 16:35, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I’m a bit confused about all of this. Firstly, I have only read that there are general BLP concerns on the article, what specifically are the BLP concerns? And secondly, why do the BLP concerns need to be under a deletion review, and not the articles talk page? TheSpacebook (talk) 16:37, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think we're treading very dangerous ground with WP:BLP by creating a content fork to list what amounts to a bunch of unsubstantiated celebrity gossip. WP:NOTGOSSIP is relevant. I think the closure focused too much on the number of !votes and the presence of sources that might be reliable and that, in this case, these BLP concerns should have been weighed more in the closure. Simonm223 (talk) 16:53, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Moon landing conspiracy theories are a bunch of unsubstantiated conspiracy theories, but they are notable, which makes the topic encyclopedic. The Where is Kate? article isn't about the location of the Princess. It is about those unsubstantiated celebrity rumours flying around during the past few weeks. This gossip has received enough significant coverage to make the topic notable. WP:NOTGOSSIP tells us that Not every facet of a celebrity's life, personal details, matches played, or goals scored warrants inclusion in the biography (emphasis mine). This one, however, warrants inclusion. Even gossip, if significantly covered, can achieve notability. Owen× 17:06, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Again, what specifically is the concern? Which parts of the article are treading into dangerous BLP grounds? TheSpacebook (talk) 18:40, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. The closing admin provided a detailed explanation for the close, which seems to correctly reflect consensus. If the participants in that AfD did not give sufficient weight to WP:BLP concerns, that is not something the closer should overrule with a supervote. Personally, I do not see any clear BLP violation here. The article is thoroughly sourced, and maintains a neutral tone about the subject, correctly attributing rumours to the RS that quoted them, as required by our policy. Either way, we're not here to relitigate the case, only to determine if the close reflected participants' consensus, which it did. Owen× 16:49, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse the original closing decision. Uses RS throughout. The specific BLP concerns have not been made clear. The conspiracy theories/rumours are clearly sectioned off and uses RS to show they are unsubstantiated. This is not just ‘internet or tabloid gossip’ as highly reputable international sources have discussed it and the impact of it. TheSpacebook (talk) 17:01, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse per OwenX, the closer weighed the consensus correctly, and there were no real BLP violations that hadn't been already dealt with (tabloids, for instance, had long been removed). ——Serial Number 54129 17:03, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, so Kate Middleton's temporarily less visible after abdominal surgery and the media have done their collective nuts about it. In my view there are two things to review here. First is the decision not to delete our article about it, which I endorse in reluctant recognition of the consensus, and the second is the bizarre decision to call that article "Where is Kate?", about which I what the actual heck are we thinking?S Marshall T/C 17:06, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Regarding the articles title, the first 2 cites are multi-cites which are reliable sources which use the term. Also, there is a discussion on the talk page about it. I don’t understand why the articles title should be discussed in a deletion review. TheSpacebook (talk) 17:09, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    There isn't a rule saying we can't.—S Marshall T/C 17:22, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Valid point, well made. TheSpacebook (talk) 17:27, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As the AfD discussion and talk page suggest, there is likely a majority in favour of renaming/restructuring the article, but nobody has been bold enough to begin a formal page move request, likely because there is no clear alternative article title. Kategate, Mother's Day photograph of Catherine, Princess of Wales, and Conspiracy theories about the absence of Catherine, Princess of Wales each has drawbacks. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him☎️) 17:27, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    With 19 different redirects to the article, I daresay the specific title chosen for the page is more a matter of stylistic preference than of any practical encyclopedic importance. Owen× 17:46, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Some redirects redirect to the photograph, some are alternative punctuation and some I’m confused by (for example Health and appearance of Catherine, Princess of Wales). Some label it as a scandal, which can be disputed. Some titles label it a ‘controversy’, which can also be disputed as the main controversial thing is the manipulated photograph, with her absence being commented on, but still uncontroversial. TheSpacebook (talk) 17:49, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, our inclusion criteria for redirects are fairly lax, and rightly so. Owen× 17:53, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Hashtags seem to unite humanity, and #WhereIsKate was the most used hashtag to discuss the topic: (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/mar/20/where-is-katemiddleton-theories-kate-whereabouts-go-global) TheSpacebook (talk) 17:58, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Could something like 2024 suspicions and rumours about Catherine, Princess of Wales's health fit or something else in that style work. ✶Quxyz 12:31, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. The title might not be great but the content it self is encyclopedic and respectful. Whilst it makes reference to the tabloid fodder (as most wiki articles about conspiracy theories do) it doesn't treat them as fact.
That being said, I think the article should have some parts rewritten to focus more on debunking the conspiracy theories and making reference to the harm uncontrolled media speculation does. Slamforeman (talk) 19:05, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pharaoh496 (talk) 12:23, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse per previous comments. Skyshiftertalk 17:41, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse per above. (I was a merge !voter) The supposed grounds for the review are very strange - i don't see any "up/down count". The vague hand-waving around BLP and NOTGOSSIP is equally strange, particularly given the very good description of how NOTNEWS was treated. I thought it was actually a careful and thoughtful closing (and I would have preferred a different outcome). DeCausa (talk) 18:05, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse Excellent closing statement, no evidence that a relist would move the needle. BLP concerns are not a bigger concern than recentism, because we're dealing with a very public figure and the entire brouhaha is about her trying to be less public and the public, through their designated journalistic lackeys, not having any of it. Jclemens (talk) 18:16, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. The article has been picked up by news sources saying “The princess' absence from public events since Christmas last year has, as you might have expected, spawned all kinds of conspiracy theories. It even gave rise to a whole Wikipedia article entitled "Where is Kate?"“ (https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/getty-flags-another-british-royal-family-photo-for-being-digitally-altered-121856385.html#:~:text=It%20even%20gave%20rise%20to,she%27d%20undergone%20abdominal%20surgery.) TheSpacebook (talk) 18:24, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Either endorse or overturn to no consensus (noting both have the same end result for practical purposes). Strong policy-based arguments were made to keep the article, and I agree with OwenX that any BLP concerns were unfounded. Delete/merge voters made a valid claim regarding whether this has/will have a lasting impact but there clearly was not consensus to not keep the article. Due to the high attendance at the AFD, I do not think a relist would impact the discussion. Therefore I oppose relisting. Frank Anchor 19:09, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to endorse keep closure of first AFD for reasons I stated above and procedural close this DRV as new information has come to light possibly affecting whether this article should be kept. The best place for that discussion is a new (3rd) AFD, not continued discussion here. Frank Anchor 14:01, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Adding that I very strongly oppose relisting the 2nd AFD as it turned into a trainwreck of discussions involving the article itself and proposed procedural closes due to the in-process DRV. The much better option is to get all of the old discussions (including this one) behind us and start fresh with a BRAND NEW deletion discussion. Frank Anchor 02:33, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn and close as no consensus, relist, or resend to AfD: I created the article, nominated it for AfD, and eventually !voted Keep:
  1. As the closing comment to the AfD article suggests, a thorny issue here is that there isn't really disagreement (on the whole) about the article's coverage in reliable sources, though there has been some disagreement about whether those sources are secondary. Moreover, the disagreement concerns whether this article should be on Wikipedia at all – that is, the scope of the project, and WP:NOTNEWS/WP:NOTGOSSIP.
  2. Tellingly, this deletion review results from a discussion at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Kate Middleton, in which responding editors with particular interest in BLP policy feel overwhelmingly that the article doesn't conform with said policy, and that this was overlooked or not clearly articulated in the AfD discussion, in which there were no !votes or comments that directly cited WP:BLP outside my nomination statement, except the rather memorable Delete !vote that this [is a] grotesque BLP-violating festival of WP:NOTNEWS tabloid indulgence. In hindsight, I would have liked to inform the noticeboard of the article and topic from the outset, and I also don't know whether I would have voted differently had the BLP argument (separate from NOTNEWS) been better articulated.
  3. While I thought the nomination statement was graciously well-worded and clearly the product of much reflection, I was also somewhat surprised that the AfD closed as Keep rather than No Consensus, and the closing sentences, in particular, seemed off to me: the keep editors, collectively acknowledged NOTNEWS, but differed in their view of whether the amount and duration of coverage warranted an exception. I felt that the position that reached consensus in this discussion is that it did.
  4. Finally, and importantly, I think the AfD did have a thread of evolving discussion, so a relist might have helped to achieve consensus. The other thing is that this is an evolving news story, and editors contributing at the start of the discussion would have had a different perspective than those towards the end. The discussion at the BLP noticeboard, and a bold bid from the DRV nominator to redirect the article two days after the AfD close, finally show that even if the AfD did reach consensus, this isn't a consensus that is being respected. We have comments on the noticeboard like:
  1. It's one of those articles that makes you think Wikipedia might not be a good idea after all
  2. the standalone article is a mockery of WP' BLP concerns, which pretty much override everything
  3. This entire side article seems like a major BLP violation ... The worst kind of gossip. The people arguing to keep it seem like gossip mongers themselves, and
  4. that is one of the worst articles I've ever seen and should have been nuked without prejudice. The AfD is a disgrace.
With all this in mind, I recommend overturning the closure and closing as no consensus, relisting, or resending to AfD. I appreciate there isn't much in WP:DRVPURPOSE to support this perspective, but given the dissatisfaction that has resulted from the closure and the response of the noticeboard, coupled with the uniqueness of the topic and the fact that the discussion has centred so much around Wikipedia's purpose rather than the individual topic, I wave my hands with the magic dust that is WP:IAR. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him☎️) 21:04, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm also partially concerned that the BLP noticeboard prompted an editor to amend WP:NOTNEWS to tamp down on this sort of embarrassment in future (source). Though the amendment is minor and I don't think it would have changed anyone's !votes, it's not in a collaborative spirit for a group of editors to feel that their concerns were not articulated in an AfD on a topic receiving considerable news coverage, then amend the policy that formed the basis of the discussion so that future AfDs might come closer to their desired result. It seems like the best possible result out of this situation is to allow said group of editors to express their concerns at an AfD. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him☎️) 21:11, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm skimming that discussion and not seeing a whole lot of sound policy reasoning articulated there. I'm seeing a whole lot of emotional reasoning attempting to use policy to achieve a desired result, combined with some really bad takes: newspapers aren't secondary sources? Seriously? Regardless, I wouldn't let other peoples' overreactions either goad or guilt you into doing anything; the community spoke pretty cogently in the AfD actually. Jclemens (talk) 21:43, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. The epitome of that is one of the (currently) latter posts which says "I don't think there's a point in the Deletion Review, since clearly the close with that AfD was really no other way to go with how the discussion itself played out. No consensus at worst. But the problem is that all the editors who voted Keep in said discussion, especially with their extremely poor reasoning, should be ashamed of themselves."[3] DeCausa (talk) 22:08, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
newspapers aren't secondary sources? Seriously? - Take a look at WP:PRIMARYNEWS. Also per WP:PRIMARY (the policy): For Wikipedia's purposes, breaking news stories are also considered to be primary sources. See also note d of WP:PRIMARY. Or see: Discursive primary sources include other people’s accounts of what happened, such as reports of meetings, handbooks, guides, diaries, pamphlets, newspaper articles, sermons and literary and artistic sources.[1]: 69 . Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 22:18, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's literally about breaking news or, at least, immediate news reporting. Actually, most news media is a mixture of primary and secondary even within the same article. For the type of sourcing that's in this article it's almost all secondary. DeCausa (talk) 22:31, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This. Beat me to it. Jclemens (talk) 22:33, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is about news reporting, yes. And the distinction between primary and secondary sources is usually far muddier than people might wish. But I was merely responding to the blanket "newspapers aren't secondary sources?". No, very often they are not. Or rather the articles aren't. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 22:40, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I did, however, cut short my quote from Donnelly & Norton. It should be: Discursive primary sources include other people’s accounts of what happened, such as reports of meetings, handbooks, guides, diaries, pamphlets, newspaper articles, sermons and literary and artistic sources. They are considered to be inferior to documents of record because they are held to contain various degrees of interpretation, subjectivity and bias. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 22:44, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Very often" is the problem. I think editors making broad statements about newspapers being primary sources is what's inappropriate. It's actually a narrow circumstance when that's the case. DeCausa (talk) 22:48, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Narrow" is rather debatable. But this is DRV, and I'm sidetracking. I'll happily discuss how narrow reporting of current events is in a newspaper on my talk page or yours. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 23:46, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Donnelly, Mark P.; Norton, Claire (2021). Doing history (2nd ed.). London New York: Routledge Taylor & Francis Group. ISBN 9781138301559.
  • Overturn, endorse or Close as moot under WP:SNOW per my later comment (!vote change). The most important thing is that this article should be sent back to AfD, and all roads (endorse, overturn, close as moot) seem to be leading there. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him☎️) 19:29, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse I thought that was a very well-reasoned close, and would have come to a similar conclusion myself. I'm actually surprised those advocating deletion didn't make stronger arguments, considering I recognised a few of those names - and let me be clear, I'm not saying those arguments were invalid, just that they did not really counteract the keep !arguments in the way I might have expected that would have been needed in order to close this against consensus. SportingFlyer T·C 23:06, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and close as no consensus The opposing arguments were based on WP:NOTNEWS, WP:RECENTISM, and WP:BLP, all of which are policies. An article with running commentary on every move a living person makes is a violation of WP:BLP. That alone was enough to override most of the arguments put forward by the group who was in favor of keeping the page. I don't see any point in deleting the article at this juncture, since I'm pretty sure some of the users involved would then start adding all that questionable content to the main page; additionally, I do not see a new AfD going anywhere as long as there's hysteria in the media about her whereabouts. However, closing that discussion as 'no consensus' would be an acknowledgment of the fact that the "delete" votes were based on our policies. Keivan.fTalk 01:54, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Re-open the AfD Given her announcement that she has been diagnosed with cancer, there are multiple people on the article's talk page that find the whole thing to be insensitive or unnecessary. Even the article's major contributor is asking for policy-based input. It's better to have a discussion now; this is clearly a WP:BLP issue. Keivan.fTalk 18:58, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. Reopen AfD immediately. TheSpacebook (talk) 19:02, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Closer's comment I just wanted to drop by to acknowledge I am aware of the discussion here, and continue to stand by my close. Thanks. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 02:14, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse: while there were vote counters present at the AfD (which aren't supposed to happen but this is what occurs for a popular AfD) the closer did an excellent job at comparing the arguments made on both sides and compared the strength and reasoning of both arguments in making their decision. A relist won't affect that, and no suitable arguments for BLP concerns where made (either there or here for that matter). Specific concerns can be challenged on the page itself or brought up on the article's talk page. microbiologyMarcus [petri dish·growths] 12:52, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Following the cancer diagnosis all speculation should be deleted from this Article. Jaymailsays ([[User talk:|talk]]) 19:05, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Absolutely not, Jaymailsays. Speculation was in RS'es, it's part of the timeline of the event. Jclemens (talk) 20:34, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re-list given that the reason for her not being there has now been released [4], I believe this AFD needs more input about the BLP concerns, particularly around all the incorrect speculation. Joseph2302 (talk) 19:06, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re-list per Joseph2302. The situation has completely changed now, though I'm not sure we should ever have been asking the question here. StAnselm (talk) 19:26, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment A new discussion is taking place at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Where is Kate? (2nd nomination). I think this review can be closed since the previous AfD took place before her diagnosis was made public and most of the comments would be out of date. Keivan.fTalk 19:29, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Close the deletion review and move all comments to the new AfD so we can have a centralised discussion. TheSpacebook (talk) 20:02, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rather, Close the second AfD discussion as premature and continue the proper process here. Jclemens (talk) 20:32, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Procedural close. New AfD overtakes. This is moot. The new AfD is not speedily closable. It is new, but it is well underway. The suggested alternative of closing the AfD and directing interested editors to this deletion review would be an imperious action that would lead to unnecessary conflict and confusion, and open the door to various grievances. There are no such problems when a DRV is closed: The editors who frequent this venue can see the bigger picture. The editors pouring in to comment in the AfD can not see the bigger picture. The excess energy that exists now can not be contained by procedural arguments. It's more effective and efficient to let everyone share their thoughts based on the new information in the new AfD than to discuss how and why the AfD was procedurally closed and on what basis. And if the AfD is not closed, there is no basis for this DRV to continue. I thank the closer of the AfD that was reviewed here for his close.—Alalch E. 21:14, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. The reason for opening the review just reads like a re-litigation of arguments brought forth during the AfD. The closing statement was very thoughtful and had a very logical and policy-based reasoning. Also seems like WP:FORUMSHOPPING from the user who requested the review to open a DRV and then open a second AfD nomination while their current DRV is still open.  Bait30  Talk 2 me pls? 21:22, 22 March 2024 (UTC) My bad, I misread who opened the DRV.  Bait30  Talk 2 me pls? 21:26, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    To make a declaratory endorsement of Xymmax's respectable close is understandable, but it doesn't do anyhting vis-a-vis the encyclopedia. It's just declaratory. We've got major mootness going on. There's a new AfD, and the new AfD will decide whether to keep, delete or employ an ATD. —Alalch E. 21:32, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Procedurally close second AfD until this DRV is concluded, per Jclemens. This second AfD comes across as vexatious litigation, especially seeing the persistent WP:BLUDGEONing going on there. If the new AfD isn't closed, it is more than likely to end up in DRV again, based on the impassioned responses there. Would we then allow a third AfD to usurp the second DRV? This should end here on 28 March, as per our established process. Owen× 21:27, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You can close the second AfD right away citing the second bullet of Wikipedia:Deletion policy#Process interaction. We have a literal policy-level norm against the second AfD that is now ongoing. But it should not be done. We have a policy suggesting that it should, but common sense suggests the opposite. —Alalch E. 22:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As we can see here, common sense can differ greatly even between experienced editors. The issue is disputed enough that I'd rather see consensus appear than act unilaterally. But if the current brouhaha is any indication, this second AfD will not definitively decide anything, as it will be instantly contested in DRV, again. Owen× 22:20, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree the new AfD should be closed. We cannot have two deletion discussions on the same article open at the same time. Pawnkingthree (talk) 22:54, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pointless DRV The close was proper, because there was no other way to close that original AfD. It's just that the editors involved in that AfD were incredibly shameful and blatant ignorers of WP:BLP and WP:NOT (particular WP:GOSSIP) policy by trying to inappropriately use GNG as a bludgeon to ignore BLP violating articles that have nothing to do with notability. That policy-violating stance was made very clear in the second AfD that was opened and the consensus that was very clearly forming there on the article needing to be deleted. So, again, this DRV is a waste of time. The original close was right, it was the editors involved in the discussion that were wrong and failed at following long-standing Wikipedia policy. A shame to all of them and their capability as Wikipedia editors. SilverserenC 23:42, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    So that's an endorse then. DeCausa (talk) 23:48, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    An "endorse" that all Keep voters failed at being a Wikipedia editor, sure. SilverserenC 23:52, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    All this is moot since the AfD has been procedurally closed in light of the DRV. Simonm223 (talk) 23:54, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    And a new one should be started the moment this DRV is over. It seems quite clear from what was procedurally closed that the broader Wikipedia community has a much changed opinion on the article than the original smaller group that was actively ignoring policy. SilverserenC 23:56, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    71 editors posted to the 1st AfD, 45 to the recently closed second one. DeCausa (talk) 00:01, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    71 editors in 8 days; 45 in 4 hours. Simonm223 (talk) 00:19, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You need to read the thread to make relevant responses. I replied to this statement: "the broader Wikipedia community has a much changed opinion on the article than the original smaller group". I was obviously pointing out the error in the statement that it was a "much smaller group". Your reply was a non-sequitur. DeCausa (talk) 00:37, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    What you call "ignoring policy" is actually editors having a different interpretation of policy to you. Pawnkingthree (talk) 00:02, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah. Wow. DFlhb (talk) 00:18, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Very much endorse this opinion (and therefore vote to close this and move discussion to the second AfD). Loki (talk) 01:11, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't agree with the assertion that my capabilities as a Wikipedia editor and I need to be shamed.  Bait30  Talk 2 me pls? 09:11, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I wish that Liz had not closed the second AfD. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, and procedural issues should be weighed against a vibrant, ongoing, and useful discussion. This DRV is *not* the same thing - as Silverseren says, the close was clearly correct for that discussion and has thus been roundly endorsed. But the second AfD was opened for good reason - because a massive new piece of information has recontextualized the entire existence of the article. —Ganesha811 (talk) 01:08, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse, start over I agree that it's bad keep arguments rather than a bad close, and given that the AfD ran before today's announcement, a new deletion discussion should commence. Preferably after everyone involved reads WP:BLPGOSSIP. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:25, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Muboshgu A new deletion discussion had commenced. An AfD ran not before, but after yesterday's announcement. It was not the AfD that is reviewed in this deletion review but a second AfD, started yesterday. That new deletion discussion was closed. I don't think that you are aware of this. You probably only know about this deletion review and about the first AfD, judging by your comments. —Alalch E. 06:07, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Procedural close (keep). A deletion discussion for this article was literally just conducted and the result was keep. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 01:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep (not sure of the meaning of these close and endorse comments are --sorry, I'm just used to keep, merge, and delete) As said on the previous discussion, it evolved into a well-sourced article raising issues and about a topic that got a lot of news coverage. There's too much work in it to just delete the lot. At worst, merge it to the KM article. BalletForCattle (talk) 02:02, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Therealscorp1an and BalletForCattle:, this is WP:DRV, not WP:AFD. There are different rules. Things have changed since the AfD closed. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Procedurally close this DRV, re-open the second AFD, and call it a day here. nableezy - 02:33, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse, perhaps speedily, and reopen discussion at AfD or elsewhere about moving and/or rewriting the article. I see a clear consensus above, with which I agree, that the close was a correct summary of the discussion. Though some feel the discussion, while voluminous, was problematic itself. On the other hand, new information has changed the context of the article greatly in the last 24 hours and it makes no sense to wait a full seven days here before we move on to the inevitable next stage in this hullabaloo. Eluchil404 (talk) 03:54, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Second comment Can we just endorse the result of the first AfD and reopen the second AfD that was started after the announcement of her cancer diagnosis? I cannot believe we are stuck with a deletion review that's not going to change any outcomes anyway. There were multiple users who argued for the article's deletion in the second AfD and their voices were suppressed by cack handedly closing the discussion because of this ongoing review. Keivan.fTalk 04:00, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The second AFD was a hot mess and I think it is chaotic to launch a new AFD while the previous AFD is being debated. After this DRV is closed, which can happen early, you know, depending on its outcome, the second AFD can be reopened or, even better, a fresh discussion launched. But it was disruptive to have multiple open discussions on the same article happening in different places. This is not bureaucracy, it's just having an order and process to decision-making and not letting emotion override policy. Liz Read! Talk! 04:11, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Well said. We're often called upon to decide between bold action and policy. In this case, the two happened to coincide. You did what had to be done. Owen× 08:32, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for the explanation, Liz - I agree that it was unfortunate to have two discussions open simultaneously on the same article. To me, the clearer path would have been to close the DRV, since there was a reasonably clear consensus here, and allow the second AfD to move forward, but there's obviously room for reasonable disagreement. —Ganesha811 (talk) 15:58, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    While the second AfD was indeed a hot mess, given how this deletion review has played out and is continuing to play out, I can't see any way this story will continue except through a third AfD. You were right to close the second AfD, Liz, and with the passage of time, at least any third AfD will have a better chance of not letting emotion override policy. Nevertheless, unless WP:RENOM is enforced, it does feel somewhat like we're waiting more days – whether by bureaucracy or order and process – for a fresh AfD, at which point all discussion here will be rendered moot anyway, all the while a substantial number of editors believe an article continues to exist with BLP violations that were not mentioned in the first AfD and have not been addressed by subsequent edits. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him☎️) 19:58, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse close and endorse close of second AfD It was frankly disruptive behaviour and forum shopping to open a second AfD while this deletion review discussion was ongoing. The close of the original AfD correctly assessed consensus. Raising BLP is a red herring. Our BLP policies are designed to prevent unsourced content about living people. Per WP:PUBLICFIGURE "In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources, and BLPs should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. AusLondonder (talk) 08:43, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, I guess we'll all wait til 28th for this deletion review to be over and then start the third AfD that the community clearly wants and is clearly appropriate in the circumstances. I wish that we Wikipedians could adapt to change at a more reasonable speed than this.—S Marshall T/C 09:04, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Good question is why was this pointless, time-wasting deletion review started? AusLondonder (talk) 10:20, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Because my understanding was that is what I had to do to get that BLP violating mess actioned in less than three months. Simonm223 (talk) 12:29, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse close. I was on the delete side of the original AfD and I maintain that view, but my personal opinion is not what matters here. What matters is that the closer's assessment of consensus was valid. Also endorse close of second AfD: I fail to see how the announcement of her cancer diagnosis affects the article's notability. The consensus was that discussion of speculation and photo editing met our notability requirements yesterday, and notability is not temporary. Rosbif73 (talk) 09:20, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Shame on all of you who have tried to exert your own hotsy-totsy importance over the Princess of Wales by abusing Wikipedia's frequency-notability policy to create and argue for the preservation of a horrific article! The article must be deleted if you all have a single bone of decency and propriety in your bodies. With the article in question, English Wikedia descended to the level of the tackiest, sleaziest, most deplorable and digusting tabloid press. Shame on you who did that! One short paragraph about her illness in our article on the princess must now suffice. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:15, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Regardless of which way this particular discussion goes, SergeWoodzing, be assured that at least no-one's going to take the blindest bit of notice of this nonsensical crackpottery. Cheers! ——Serial Number 54129 15:49, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great! That shameful and nonsensical crackpottery will be excluded from the relevant article, and all articles if I may say. Will be glad to see you in the forefront of such efforts. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:01, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Can we snow-close as Endorse? There is only one outstanding Overturn !vote, my own, and also noting Relist !votes, most contributors, myself included, are eager to play out a third AfD in light of the diagnosis announcement and the WP:BLP concerns not expressed in the first AfD. At this point, this DRV feels like an unnecessary bureaucratic hold-up, whether or not the procedural close of the second AfD was correct. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him☎️) 16:51, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    No, we can't. An uninvolved person could.—S Marshall T/C 17:34, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Close this review as moot due to being overtaken by external events. At this point, it doesn't matter much whether the prior deletion discussion(s) were closed appropriately or not. The information available about the topic has changed substantially, and we should be discussing what to do in light of the subsequent events, not whether Wikipedia's consensus assessment process was conducted well or not in the past. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:15, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn That there was vote counting in the close is explicit, with discussion of "majority" and "plurality", and the summing up at the end was that the there was a consensus in the majority about NOTNEWS. But in actual NOT-vote counting, we are not concerned with a consensus among the majority, we are concerned about a consensus among all participants, and that there was no consensus on RECENTISM and the intersection with BLP is at least defensible given the discussion, while this vote counting close is not. (Also, reread the comment above by the article creator.)
Moveover, the article was based on the premise of a mystery concerning a putative missing person ("Where is Kate?"), which at least, implies the potential for criminality. The encyclopedia's suggestion of a missing person highly implicates BLP, which was given short shrift by the closer.
Now, of course, as is usual in the midst of something, new information has come to light, suggesting nothing nefarious is going on, but rather a personal, familial, potential tragedy, and private medical treatment. Thus, there is good reason now to go back and possibly TNT the present article, and treat the disparate matters not as a COATRACK (the news treatment of manipulated photos in the age of AI fears, misinformation fears, and social media pressure may be something, but it is not in sum a personal medical or missing person mystery - for example, our own publication likely uses manipulated - perhaps once thought innocuous - images throughout) but instead treat the various matters with the distance, weight, and explanatory power we as an encyclopedia are required to aim for, especially when BLP and RECENTISM is implicated. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:03, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse This whole business smacks of seeking a supervote to undo a consensus. pbp 19:11, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It smacks of no such thing and how can you possibly say that when yesterday it became known that the underlying reason for the media circus is that she has cancer, which wasn't known at the time of the first AfD. It is this new fact which caused editors on all sides of the AfD to see the article in a new light, and for many of them to want the content about this updated and for our coverage of this topic seriously reworked because they came to think that the article isn't encyclopedically valid anymore in terms of various policies that are being mentioned, including the one about due weight, another one about living persons et cetera. Firstly, the article was out of date the moment the news broke, and even when the second, now-closed AfD, was started, and BLPs must not be out of date when it comes to sensitive items. To read something nefarious into a desire to reach a consensus on what to do with the article under these circumstances makes for an inappropriate comment. —Alalch E. 20:44, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yesterday's announcement changed nothing. It adds to the information and new RS commentary will be added to the article per DUE weight, but just because she announces her cancer that doesn't magically erase the prior RS. Out of date is a reason for incorporating new info, not deleting validly sourced older information. Finally, my essay WP:CRYBLP is proven necessary, unfortunately, once again, as many otherwise reasonable editors seem to have forgotten what BLP actually says and instead invoke "BLP violation" as a cryptoshibboleth for "something that might hurt someone's feelings" when the policy is very much not that at all. Jclemens (talk) 21:35, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I was describing what caused editors to see the article in a new light and to want to keep the discussion going in order to explain how it is inappropriate to read into something nefarious as in "smacks of seeking a supervote to undo a consensus". —Alalch E. 21:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist AfD or make a new one. Has everyone forgot WP:BLP? Pretty sure you cannot speculate on living people per that. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 19:26, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Can you please give me quotes from the article which are BLP violations/speculation, and I can get it sorted. From what I see, there’s 1 section that is clearly labelled ‘unsubstantiated conspiracy theories’ and the rest is balanced, neutral commentary. TheSpacebook (talk) 19:49, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The overall point, I think, is that the article itself, as a standalone article, goes against the spirit of WP:BLP, particularly WP:BLPGOSSIP. I appreciate now that this why there has been so much handwaving on BLP: no particular part of the policy addresses it, but it should fall foul, and hence the article should be resent to AfD and deleted as quickly as possible, but it does require (in my view) circumventing typical deletion rationales and treating this is an edge case that should later be reflected in clearer policy to prevent similar articles in the future. *whispers* On this, there are lots of relevant comments and !arguments off-wiki which really should have been brought on-wiki so much sooner, and would have averted a lot of this fiasco had they been expressed. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him☎️) 19:59, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I’ve said the following in a previous comment: How are articles like Conspiracy theory about Vladimir Putin's body doubles and Claims of Vladimir Putin's incapacity and death allowed? Also how is article Larries allowed too? If the logic in the Where is Kate? AfD discussion is applied, those three articles should also be deleted. They speculate and contain conspiracy theories (and commentary of) the health and sexuality of living people. TheSpacebook (talk) 20:03, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Maybe they all need to be deleted as well? Even so, they are not the subject of this AfD. TNstingray (talk) 20:08, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Note that one of those conspiracy theory articles was taken to AfD and closed as no consensus, while the other is relatively new (it didn't even have WikiProjects attached). In my view, the best possible case for Where is Kate's retention is to focus not on Catherine's absence, nor the conspiracy theories, but the online (media) frenzy, which as another editor said, also takes the focus away from the princess. This might come across as an unhelpful content dispute, but yesterday's extensive article reorganisation and trimming you reverted was meant to go some way to help this by trimming many of the excessive details about Catherine, like the fact that the Waleses were planning trips to Latvia or Italy, that Catherine was wearing sunglasses in the paparazzi photograph, or the insignificant sideshow of the Big Brother appearance, and removing contentious commentary statements like Since the death of Queen Elizabeth II, support for the monarchy reached a record low (the source of which has no relation to the controversy). These kinds of details and commentary are against the spirit of WP:BLP, and unless the article changes direction, I don't think it should survive a third AfD. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him☎️) 21:15, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I just wonder if past articles about living people's conpiracies like Clinton body count conspiracy theory and Birtherism should have received as strict scrutiny as Kate's issue here. (In fact the Clintons' conspiracy page already survived two AfDs yet neither of them culminated in an intense debate; Obama's survived three AfDs, but each ended with an overwhelming majority of Keep/Endorse votes.) If gossips around the Clintons and Obama deserve more toleration simply based on their status as politicians, then I fail to see why Kate, also undertaking public services, may receive much more protection. Moreover it should be determined to what extent the living people's privacy should receive more protection than those deceased, i.e. for what different reasons from BLP should we treat articles like Lady Di or JFK's conspiracies with heightened scrutiny. Jason211pacem (talk) 08:09, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Basically this, yeah. It's so weird to have an article that doesn't go against the letter of BLP, but definitely goes against its spirit. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 20:59, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    So no actual BLP policy is being broken then? Okay. TheSpacebook (talk) 21:05, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If I was a single purpose account for the purpose of editing Kate Middleton's page, I would probably have a bit more subtle tact in how I post in this discussion. Parabolist (talk) 21:12, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Delete
    ●At the time of her operation in January, Kate asked for privacy.
    ●During her video update yesterday (1m 50s) she repeated her plea for privacy.
    ●Yesterday the UK prime minister has accused social media of wild speculation and emphasised Kate has a right to privacy during recovery.
    ●Yesterday, the US President's press secretary at the outset, briefed the press that they would be respecting Kate's privacy.
    ● Morally, Wikipedia should delete, "Where is Kate" and find a delete editor who is willing to abide by the subjects privacy request. Jaymailsays (talk) 21:52, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You might have noticed you are the only one to mark their post "Delete". This is about whether the closing of the AfD conformed with what's expected of an AfD closing, not whether the article should be kept or deleted. Likely, there will be a new AfD on that. DeCausa (talk) 22:00, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I fully agree with your sentiment that Catherine has asked for privacy, and we should respect that. However, the mainstream media and social media didn’t comply with her request, and we can’t WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Her own uncle went on one of the most watched television shows in the UK and said “if it’s announced, I’ll tell you my opinion on it” which set the media and social media ablaze with conspiracies of what he was talking about. I said in the 2nd AfD that we should restructure the article to only focus on the media circus that happened, as the back-to-back front page coverage was no-doubt notable. In the currently ongoing move discussion, I’ve suggested we retitle the article to Media circus around the public absence of Catherine, Princess of Wales. It is a teachable moment for society on how to not treat public figures when they’re recovering from surgery. However saying “we should find a delete editor” borders on WP:CANVASSING, and to mention “the UK prime minister” and the “US’s press secretary” are a totally irrelevant people to bring up (they have the same impact as saying “the man down the pub has said we should respect her privacy”) why do they have special influence in this? TheSpacebook (talk) 22:17, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Her own uncle went on one of the most watched television shows in the UK and said “if it’s announced, I’ll tell you my opinion on it” which set the media and social media ablaze with conspiracies of what he was talking about. → If you're referring to his comments on 6 March, no it didn't. I struggled to find non-tabloid WP:RS on his comments except the Sky News source currently in the article, which I added. As per my previous comment, the Big Brother appearance is a non-notable sideshow that should be deleted from the article. IgnatiusofLondon (he/him☎️) 22:44, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That doesn’t account for the social media speculation which it caused though. But, TIME magazine (https://time.com/6898093/kate-middleton-uncle-gary-goldsmith-celebrity-big-brother/), the Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/culture/kate-middleton-where-gary-big-brother-b2508344.html), and Newsweek (https://www.newsweek.com/kate-middleton-uncle-gary-goldsmith-health-update-1876762) all reported on it: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22gary+goldsmith%22+%22if+it%27s+announced%22& . My point being that her own family didn’t even respect her privacy and spoke about her with cryptic sentences one of the most watched television shows, which gave a solid foundation for people to speculate, and we can’t WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. TheSpacebook (talk) 22:51, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I already did point out a BLP problem with the article (which you edit warred back in) it begins with a vague mystery of living person being "absent" when it is plain false that she was mysteriously absent; everyone in the world knew from January, she was on planned medical leave through Easter, and it continues. We know where she was and why, we knew where she was and why (although we did not know all the details), yet Wikipedia raises a question about her whereabouts? -- which is indefensible in and of itself, but then, we do not answer it in the very next breath. That's TABLOID, RECENTISM, GOSSIP writing. And worse, the entire structure is a BLP violation and so is its undue emphasis on a fake mystery (Due is a part of BLP policy). To begin to be compliant, the whole thing needs to be TNT'd from the end to the beginning - we know how it shakes out, eg. we know that the BLP subject says and the evidence suggests the edits were innocent, something people often do before posting picture. We begin with what is real, that's the only way speculation can even begin to be be properly written about in an encyclopedia. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:32, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    For the record, the edit war was solely regarding whether the title ‘Where is Kate?’ was to be in the lede, and/or if it should be bolded. How is this a BLP violation? The “vague mystery” you mentioned was still there on both sides of the edit war. edit 1, edit 2, edit 3,edit 4, edit 5. After the edit war, I opened up a talk discussion and another editor restored my edits. Without it, the title was left unexplained. But now the consensus in the current move discussion is moving away from that title, so only now it is unnecessary. TheSpacebook (talk) 13:10, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • New AFD It's not clear why we should continue reviewing the outcome of the first AFD given that it took place before the major developments on this topic and is therefore almost wholly irrelevant. There seems to be plenty of appetite for a fresh AFD knowing what we now know and this DRV is holding it up. Pinguinn 🐧 10:27, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The second AfD is extremely fresh. —Alalch E. 02:06, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist due to WP:BLP problems. If it had been known that Catherine had been diagnosed with cancer and was undergoing chemotherapy, which came out after this AfD closed -- and, if I'm not mistaken, after this Deletion Review began, this article might never have been written in the first place. Several of the "endorse" recommendations above were posted before Catherine revealed that information. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 15:15, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Particularly given the fact that new information has come to light, isn't a fresh AfD preferable to a relist? IgnatiusofLondon (he/him☎️) 16:03, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I am changing my recommendation to new AfD per IgnatiusofLondon. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 00:45, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If it's per IgnatiusofLondon, I'll ask you too: preferable to a relist of what? In reference to your comment above: It was known that Catherine had been diagnosed with cancer and was undergoing chemotherapy when the last AfD held for this article was started. That happened on March 22. It's very possible that you are not aware of this. Also see my comment at the same indent level below yours, which is also prior to yours.—Alalch E. 02:01, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Alalch E.: I'm not even sure what you are arguing in favor of at this point. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 15:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I am arguing against a future, third, AfD but in favor of the second AfD being allowed to continue and naturally resolve, and I come from a standpoint that on March 22 the second AfD should not have been closed, but what should have been closed is this Deletion review. I've said more about this further down so I won't repeat that in this reply. —Alalch E. 15:40, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Relist of what? The second AfD was started on the basis of new information. If you mean a relist of the second AfD, it had already been started on the basis of the new information, and if you say that a new AfD should be started on the basis of that same new information, it is unclear why the aborted AfD that was started on the basis of that same information and had been running for a while can't be relisted. If you mean relisting the first AfD, that is an impossibility. —Alalch E. 23:54, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I wouldn't mind a relisting of the second AfD: as you say, nothing has changed since that AfD. In reply to your question, what makes me prefer a fresh AfD is that, per Liz's comment above, the second AfD was launched within hours of the announcement, and emotion was running high over policy. It's likely a new AfD will benefit from, shall we say, more considered rationales. But a relisting of the first AfD is to be avoided. I can't see this DRV ending any other way than endorsing the first AfD's close or considering it moot, and interpreting consensus for the article to return to AfD, whether by relisting the second AfD or recognising consensus to ignore WP:RENOM and start a third AfD within six months. In that respect, what I don't quite understand is your position that no further AfD is preferable to a third AfD. Isn't the most important result here that the article's BLP concerns, not mentioned in the first AfD, are reviewed by the community at AfD, rather than the procedural question of at which AfD they should be reviewed? IgnatiusofLondon (he/him☎️) 09:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    People get emotional over roads, darting topics, and doughnut shops' articles being nominated for deletion. We don't discount comments because they are emotional. Someone can be emotional and have a good argument. Volunteer time and energy was invested into that discussion and this will not just be thrown away because one person thought that participants are being emotional. That would be irresponsible. And highly irritating. The closer of the second AfD will evaluate all of the arguments and make their determination of what the consensus is if any, and several people having been emotional is not a factor in that at all. —Alalch E. 10:52, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly oppose "3rd AfD" (anyone can start an AfD, a deletion review isn't needed to start an AfD) but support relisting 2nd AfD. I am so strongly against this deletion review ending with a recommendation for or a procedural start of a third AfD that if this ends with something other than a consensus to relist the second AfD, I am against any further AfDs on this topic, and this !vote can be interpreted as a pure endorse of the first AfD's close (a reasonable close that should not be overturned). A third AfD is an absurdity when the second AfD can be relisted. Many participants in this discussion are probably entirely unaware of the second AfD.—Alalch E. 02:19, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support relisting the second AfD, as suggested byt Alalch E, immediately above. The changed context of this entire story needs re-examining, but this review is not the place to do that. GenevieveDEon (talk) 09:44, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist second AfD - it was out of process at the time but it contains plenty of good faith comment. No need to make people copy and paste into a third one. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:17, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse closure and do not relist. The article is entirely appropriate regarding an event with massive coverage. The Princess of Wales is one of the highest profile people in the UK if not the world. The title may however need changing. Stifle (talk) 15:33, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse I don't see anything wrong with the close and while the WP:IDONTLIKEIT arguments are strong on the overturn side the policy basis is weak... It seems to amount to pounding BLP in a vague and non-specific (and at this point rather bludgeony) way. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:44, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist second AfD per new information that has come out, which hopefully puts the whole thing into a bit more perspective. --GnocchiFan (talk) 21:26, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]


20 March 2024

  • Nibble (unit) – Clear consensus to overturn the speedy and deleting admin is not interested in weighing in. If someone feels an RFD is necessary, please proceed with one. Star Mississippi 02:43, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Nibble (unit) (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)

Much as with the Bit (unit), this is a plausible Template:R from unnecessary disambiguation, and as such not eligible for WP:R3, it is likewise ineligible for WP:G14 which it was also deleted as, and instead should have been discussed at WP:RFD if deletion was thought appropriate. Request for undeletion has gone unanswered after two weeks which I believe is a reasonable wait period, as such I'm bringing this here. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:5E4:48BE:836F:9F61 (talk) 00:06, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Seems plausible to me, too. I'm especially unimpressed with the edit summary used to tag this as G14 ("the creator bizarrely flagged this as unnecessary but didn't delete it"), which suggests to me a fundamental misunderstanding of not only the {{R from unnecessary disambiguation}} tag but the deletion process in general. No idea if it'd be kept at RFD. —Cryptic 00:28, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn. This is a fine redirect, a quite average redirect, and the deletion was clearly an error.—Alalch E. 00:36, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn - doesn't qualify under R3. Over the past few weeks, DRV has overturned several of this admin's incorrectly applied speedy deletions. I also find her responses to the appellant to be uncivil, unconstructive, and baselessly assuming bad faith. Any user, registered or not, is entitled to ask for an explanation for what appears to be an out-of-process deletion without being questioned about their identity or getting chided for their grammar. Owen× 00:41, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn - not an implausible redirect and so not R3. Should redirect to Nibble. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:56, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn per the above. RfD if desired, but... why? Jclemens (talk) 06:25, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can someone please explain to me why this is plausible? SportingFlyer T·C 15:44, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Both words are spelled correctly and the disambiguator is correctly punctuated, so it's not a typo; the first word is the term's canonical name and it's inarguably a unit, so it's not a misnomer. R3 doesn't require that a redirect be plausibly useful, and even if it did, nibble could plausibly redirect to, say, snack - and that's part of the point of {{R from unnecessary disambiguation}}. —Cryptic 16:20, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Thank you. I am unfamiliar with a nibble as a unit. SportingFlyer T·C 17:26, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn R3 does not apply because it is a plausible redirect. "Nibble" is a common enough term that a user may search using the disambiguator. Likewise G14 does not apply because that only covers redirect pages ending in "(disambiguation)," which this page does not. Frank Anchor 16:47, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Here is what the deleting admin has to say about this. Owen× 17:10, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

19 March 2024

  • Draft:Sapna ChoudharySpeedily overturned because all the conditions of the second limb of "Speedy closes", at the foot of the DRV instructions, obtain. The deleting sysop has reversed their decision and restored the disputed content, and every !vote to endorse has been withdrawn. We treat this kind of incident as an honest mistake and a learning opportunity, so it falls to me as closer to apologise on the community's behalf to LearnologyX for having to come here. We're sorry this happened.—S Marshall T/C 13:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Draft:Sapna Choudhary (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)

The subject Sapna Choudhary · ( talk | logs | links | watch | afd | afd2 ) · [revisions] and its AfC have been deleted several times citing WP:G11, whereas the recent AfC submitted by me maintained WP:NPOV and contained nothing that could be considered advertising or promotional. Furthermore, the 2nd AfD discussion was not well-contested, and the 1st AfD discussion, nominated in 2017 for AfD under WP:G11, saw experienced editors voting in favor of deletion, with comments such as WP:TOOSOON. It may be possible that in 2017, the subject was not covered in depth by third-party reliable sources, but now in 2024, it is well-covered in multiple secondary reliable sources, meeting WP:GNG and WP:ENT. Additionally, the subject is already available on different projects of Wikipedia (in Hindi) and five other languages, further making it eligible for WP:TRANSLATETOHERE. LearnologyX (talk) 16:01, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse. I haven't seen the G11-deleted draft but I have no doubt that the deleting administrator applied the criterion correctly. [Overturn. After seeing the now temp-undeleted page, I recommend overturning the deletion because the content is not exclusively promotional, so this was not a correct application of G11 after all. The draft can be undeleted to let it keep existing as a draft.] The AfDs don't matter anymore: Reviewing the second AfD can't change the outcome because the content that was deleted is now outdated BLP content that is almost certainly not a good starting point for a new article, so it should not be undeleted, and, therefore, there is no reason to review that AfD. —Alalch E. 16:52, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Endorse because, like Alalch E., I haven't seen the deleted draft, but I have reason to trust the judgment of an administrator, and less reason to think that a new editor knows what is considered advertising or promotional by Wikipedia. I will comment that I have known editors who were new to Wikipedia but experienced journalists who had a different idea of neutral point of view and of promotional content than experienced Wikipedia editors. They may have learned, as journalists, to make the subject interesting to the reader, rather than to make the subject boring and encyclopedic. An appeal of a G11 is a difficult case at DRV. When is a draft too promotional to be allowed to be declined or rejected? I will comment that the AFDs are irrelevant. The AFDs said that two previous articles did not establish notability, and the issue here is not notability but promotional content. The title has not been salted in draft space, and the appellant may create a new draft. If they didn't keep a copy of the deleted draft on their computer, they can always use a wizard to start from scratch. Drafts that were deleted for G11 are difficult cases at DRV, except that an admin is more likely to know what is neutral point of view than a new editor. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:05, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - When a title has been salted in article space with two spellings, we are in the territory where the ultras in the subject's fan club have become part of the problem. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:05, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've temp-undeleted the latest G11'd draft...DRV shouldn't be a guessing game! Extraordinary Writ (talk) 22:11, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Struggling to see how this could be construed as exclusively promotional. It reads as entirely neutral to me, except some mild and fixable wording in the Career section. It's not suitable for mainspace, and the refs I looked at were all useless promotional pap, but I'd never have speedied it. (And the G4 tag was of course complete nonsense.) —Cryptic 22:49, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn G11. This may still fail AfC/AfD per NBIO, but I don't see anything promotional in how the draft is written. Owen× 00:50, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn G11 and restore as declined draft. (I think that the rejection of the draft was harsh.) There is nothing in the draft that supports any claim of notability, but it's a draft. There is also nothing, or almost nothing, in the draft that is promotional. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:07, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment to User:Cryptic - I respectfully disagree about the G4 tagging. The tagging was not complete nonsense. It was a relatively common good-faith misunderstanding of G4 and namespaces. The title had been deleted twice from article space after deletion discussions. That would be a valid G4 in article space. It isn't a reason to delete a draft, but I have seen that error from time to time. It was not complete nonsense, only wrong. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:07, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The G4 tagger has been here 8 years. G4 doesn't apply in draft, it's a pretty prominent part of G4. The tagging was entirely inappropriate, even if the "complete nonsense" appelation might be perceived as hyperbolic. Jclemens (talk) 06:21, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment to User:Jclemens - I respectfully disagree that G4 doesn't apply in draft. It just doesn't apply in the usual situation in draft. G4 is available if a draft has been previously deleted following a discussion at MFD. It just doesn't apply when an article has been deleted following a discussion at AFD. Many experienced editors don't understand the distinction. It is a set-theoretic distinction. This wasn't a case where G4 was applicable to a draft. I have seen rare cases where a draft can be G4'd because there was a previous MFD. The G4 tagging was inappropriate, but I see why the editor made that mistake. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:17, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Interesting thought. With the specific text It excludes pages in userspace and draftspace where the content was converted to a draft for explicit improvement (but not simply to circumvent Wikipedia's deletion policy)., including the note about copying, it's not clear to me that an MfD'ed draft is eligible for G4: reposting content from a deleted draft into a new draft is still copying. But this is clearly an edge case, suitable for a discussion over enjoyable beverages. Jclemens (talk) 18:25, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    In my opinion, it's even possible to G4 a draft that is a copy of an article deleted via AfD if the deletion reason around which the consensus formed extends across the two namespaces. Incidentally I added something about this to an essay a couple of weeks ago: Wikipedia:Field guide to proper speedy deletion#4. Recreation of XfD-deleted materialAlalch E. 22:48, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Example: An article can be deleted as an outcome of an AfD in which consensus formed that it is a copyright violation (and it was not unambigous enough of a copyright infringement, not easily discernible enough, for G12 to work; let's hypothesize that G12 had never been sought in the first place). If someone was to recreate that same page as a draft, G4 would absolutely apply to that draft, based on the AfD. —Alalch E. 22:56, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not thinking that's a very compelling use case, since if it's contested enough such that G12 shouldn't apply, G4 should not either. Regardless, G4 excludes an AfD-deleted article in draft or userspace where the intent is to improve it. Good luck proving negative intent. Jclemens (talk) 23:36, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    G12 precisely shouldn't but G4 should because there's an existing consensus to delete the page (the function of G4 is to prevent having the same discussion all over again) and that reason to delete doesn't care about where the content is. Can't start improving from a copyright violation, gotta start from scratch. Edit: it's not about intent at all in this case. —Alalch E. 23:48, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Another example: MfD can have a delete outcome based on content being too much of an original research, and then someone can recreate the deleted draft as an article, and no (other) speedy deletion criterion applies: G4 applies, across namespaces in this case.—Alalch E. 23:53, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It does no such thing. G4 excludes content that's in userspace and draftspace where the content was converted to a draft for explicit improvement like I quoted above. Move it back to mainspace unchanged, and absolutely G4 would apply... but I see no scenario where G4 works in draftspace absent a consensus that the editor who did it (or requested it to be done) is not acting in good faith to improve the article. And that requires editorial judgment, and that is not an attribute of a well-crafted CSD criterion. Jclemens (talk) 03:10, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The scenario comes from the fact that G4 is a general criterion that applies in all namespaces, and it not working in draftspace in the special case described does (with a caveat that makes it work after all in that special case) not mean that it does not work in draftspace in the general case. There are six deletion venues and G4 works for pages under the purview of any one of them: RfD - same redirect, TfD - sufficiently identical template, CfD - ..., and MfD - sufficiently identical draft, essay, userbox, ... What I further argue is that it can also crosscut because a consensus can be relevant beyond the narrowest scope of a venue, and it takes no editorial judgement to see that a page is identical, and it takes only a bit of administrative judgement to see that the consensus applies. —Alalch E. 13:20, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'll stop spilling digital ink here, but I just don't see how it's reasonable to use G4 on draft space with the "for explicit improvement" clause I quoted as part of the text of G4. Feel free to drop by my talk page and explain more, if you care to. Jclemens (talk) 18:19, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn G11 and G4 Per OwenX, this still isn't there yet, but it's not G11 material and should be allowed to be developed in draft in peace, or languish until G13 takes it out. Jclemens (talk) 06:21, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn G4 doesn't apply here. G11 - I can see why it's tagged, but it's not really applicable here. SportingFlyer T·C 15:49, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The consensus here is clearly to overturn, so I will reverse my deletion. Seraphimblade Talk to me 01:29, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

18 March 2024

Draft:Yuuki (Sword Art Online)

Draft:Yuuki (Sword Art Online) (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I improved the article and it was accepted by ::@Geardona, Please review the agreement on my talk page The dogcat (talk) 02:12, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, just adding my 2 cents here, the article looks good; aside from my small concern regarding over quoting, as for notability it looks to be notable to me, but I don’t know. Geardona (talk to me?) 02:18, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The article looks good" I mean yeah, but I am very concerned that this user has an afc right but can't scrutinize each source properly; even some admin knows that the character isn't notable [[5]. The draft makes it obvious that the article doesn't contain any WP:SIGCOV. The only good sources were this [6] but isn't sigcov at all as it doesn't really discuss the character, and this [7] but has less coverage than Kotaku. Anyway, still failing WP:GNG and the article was just recently merged from the AFD this year; so it is still very recent.. GreenishPickle! (🔔) 03:45, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I said the article, not the sources. Haven’t checked those yet, was going to do that later in my review; as for the AFD thing, if I had accepted, I would have to move over a redirect with history. Something I cannot do. I would appreciate it if you stopped assuming that my review was fully done. Most everything I have said is from a glance. Geardona (talk to me?) 05:06, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question/Comment what are we supposed to do here? You've added to what was discussed at AfD. You don't need to go through either us (DRV) or AFC: if you've improved the article, un-redirect it, incorporate the improvements such that the former criticisms don't apply, and let anyone who objects re-AfD it. Mind you, this only works if you understand notability and can readily incorporate it into your improved version. In general, DRV is for when someone thinks the decision was wrong and wants to contest it on the basis of the evidence available at the time. This doesn't look like that. Jclemens (talk) 07:09, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Having looked at the changes, there's a ton of added material, including reception sections. Kotaku is going to be an OK RS for fictional characters like this per my perusal of the RSN archives. Jclemens (talk) 07:16, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The truth is that I did remove the redirect, only they put the redirect back and told me to do this review. Apology. The dogcat (talk) 03:52, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's nothing to do here. This was submitted and declined at AfC. The decline reason was about a potential copyright issue - you could just remove the block quote and accept, but since there was a previous AfD we need to make sure that whatever's being submitted is substantially different. This is so far out of my area of expertise I'm not sure which sources in the AfC are GNG notable so I can't make any other recommendation as to what to do here, sorry. SportingFlyer T·C 20:54, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question/Comment I think the problem is not the quote since Asuna's article is affected by the same quote according to this page that detects violations. https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&title=Asuna+%28Sword+Art+Online%29&oldid=&action=search&use_engine=1&use_links=1&turnitin=0 The dogcat (talk) 03:58, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree. I read WP:LONGQUOTE and I don't see that there's a copyright problem with a single block quote like that in an article of that size. It may be a stylistic issue, but not something that's going to get Wikipedia in trouble... again, as I see it. Jclemens (talk) 05:06, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - The draft is almost the same as the deleted/merged article. If we are being asked to review whether the draft is an improvement over the deleted article, the differences are insignificant. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:40, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    this is not substantially identical. It's questionably better, clearly clears the G4 bar, clearly good faith, and obviously was declined at AfC once so far. Exactly the sort of iffy but earnest effort that should be coached and supported or gently corrected, not picked to pieces at DRV. Jclemens (talk) 06:15, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question - What are we being asked? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:40, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Some of the sources for Yuuki's article are also in Asuna's article and maybe in Kirito's as well. The dogcat (talk) 20:52, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

15 March 2024

  • Luxury real estate – There are, clearly, encyclopaedic articles to be written about posh property, and indeed we have several, at manor house, English country house, mansion, villa, hacienda, palace, etc. etc. At issue at this DRV is the question of whether we should have an article about the industry of marketing posh property. It's a real industry with its own trade magazines, and practitioners do receive specialist training. Nevertheless, the 2017 decision to blank and redirect this content based on this discussion is resoundingly endorsed, and as an aside, "Luxury property" is not the British English for it (off the top of my head, variously "prestige homes", "country estates", "manor houses", or "mansions"). The community is divided about whether or how the disputed content should be re-created. Where there's no consensus to prevent the submission of a draft, the submission of a draft is permitted, and the reviewer may use their judgment to decide whether to move that draft to mainspace.—S Marshall T/C 12:53, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Luxury real estate (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Little to any actual policy-based reasoning was used in this discussion, nor had any discussion taken place concerning the actual contents of the article-- the nominator simply compared the name of the article and proposed redirect target with the names of another article and redirect, and of the only two participants, one merely gave a WP:PERNOM vote, while the other participant suggested that a mention within the new target article would suffice. Closing admin performed a WP:BLAR as per nom, without adding anything to the new target article as per the second participant. 𝔏𝔲𝔫𝔞𝔪𝔞𝔫𝔫🌙🌙🌙 𝔗𝔥𝔢 𝔐𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔫𝔦𝔢𝔰𝔱 (talk) 13:55, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • It's a correctly closed seven-year-old discussion, what exactly are you asking us to do here? SportingFlyer T·C 13:58, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    ...Reinstate the article? Er. I was told by @Thryduulf: over at RfD that this was the proper method of getting a previously-deleted-by-AfD article reinstated. Did I screw up here? 𝔏𝔲𝔫𝔞𝔪𝔞𝔫𝔫🌙🌙🌙 𝔗𝔥𝔢 𝔐𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔫𝔦𝔢𝔰𝔱 (talk) 14:02, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I hadn't looked closely enough at the AfD to realise it was that old and assumed it was recent. I have no further opinion on the merits or otherwise of overturning the decision. Thryduulf (talk) 14:05, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Upon review, I would not reinstate the article which was deleted at AfD as is, so an endorse. I have no problem if you want to write a draft of a new article using better sources than the one in the redirected article, but I'm a bit concerned about WP:DICDEF here. SportingFlyer T·C 14:38, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. The closing correctly reflected consensus. And while three participants isn't much, we generally consider it to satisfy WP:QUORUM. But even if we treat this DRV as AfD round two, the provided sources do not confer enough notability to support a standalone article. That said, I do not object to any editor creating a "Luxury real estate" section in the redirect target, essentially treating the seven-year-old AfD result as a Merge rather than a redir. Owen× 14:14, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Closing admin) Eh, it's a consensus, but like the weakest consensus possible. Only a weak self-endorse on my part. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:16, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse as correct interpretation of consensus. This article was redirected with minimal participation seven years ago, so I have no objection to restoration to a full article if (and only if) more information is available to give luxury real estate standalone notability (which I do not believe is the case), obviously subject to another AFD. Frank Anchor 14:42, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Allow re-creation. I was the person who first pointed out (at RfD) the flaws in the old AfD, though at this point there doesn't seem to be much to be gained from reopening this. It's a large industry that should have enough material to support notability for a stand-alone article, but the article as it stood before AfD did need improvement. The optimal course of action here I think would be to explicitly allow re-creation or restoration of the article (preferably with improved referencing), at the editor's own discretion. Without prejudice to a new AfD, of course. --Paul_012 (talk) 14:56, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. Content is bad and redirection should not be undone. Additionally, I am against this topic as a standalone article per WP:PAGEDECIDE. This AfD was fine. The problem was obvious and needed no further comment.—Alalch E. 16:39, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse and allow re-creation with prior review. There was no other way to close the discussion. --Enos733 (talk) 17:37, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse and allow recreation, preferably via AfC draft so that a reviewer can look again throughly before it falls into the vicious cycle again. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 18:08, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse and Allow Submission of Draft for review. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:37, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse and Do not allow re-creation without consensus in support demonstrated at Talk:Real estate. Do not encourage creation of a draft without consensus at Talk:Real estate, as draftspace should not be used for content forking. The rationale for the redirect is obvious, there was no deletion, this is not a matter worthy of DRV or a second AfD. Use Talk:Real estate. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:06, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • So no need to add on to what everyone has said above, but one of the unspoken concerns, I'm guessing, from those not favoring a new article by this title is that the title is likely to be a spam magnet. Am I wrong? Jclemens (talk) 01:52, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    No. The redirected article has a long history that doesn’t including real spam. It does include sourcing from real estate fashion sources, which I consider weak, not really a foundation for an article so titled, but not spam. My opinion is that the article, like others listed under Niche real estate, are worthy of coverage but not as stand alone articles, a WP:Structurism issue. But more importantly is process. It was properly redirected, and there is no deletion involved, so it is out of scope of DRV. When it comes to organising and improving content, editors should use talk pages. Coordinating content on multiple pages is not well done by unilaterally making new draft pages, or unilaterally overturning a past redirect decision. SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:56, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Example content was:
    Luxury real estate entails greater responsibility for agents who handle transactions than ordinary real estate. They must advertise to a national audience to attract non-local buyers, whereas ordinary real estate only generally requires exposure in local media.
    Its not spam, but it does read like high end real estate agents talking about what they do. SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:00, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
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