Talk:Shakira/Archive 1

RECENT EDIT

I deleted the part that says that her mother is of Catalan-Spanish decent. That is irrelevant. Any person of the Americas (excluding Canada and the USA) is of Spanish decent and there is no need to integrate that commentary. If we were to say this we would have to add that to EVERY article relating to a Hispanic artist. We don't. We just put "Colombian", "Mexican", not "of Spanish ancestry. . .", of "Spanish and Native ancestry. . . ". It's absurd to waste time integrating irrelevant nonsense.

What is the source for those who claim that?

Nickglezdepuynol 21:12, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I thought her mother was born in Spain, so it's not just ancestry. I could be wrong about that though. Even if she wasn't, I think that was in there because Shakira plays up the fact that her father is Lebanese, and including that would make people wonder "So where's her mother from?" --Galaxiaad 23:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why you want to deny her mother's ancestry. You are trying to ethnitize Shakira by making it seem as if she has native blood. If you read any other person's bio here on wikipedia it always states "mother of irish decent ect." for example. So we will state that Shakira's mother is of Catalan Spanish decent.

Where are you getting this information from? The information says "of descent", that's what makes it completely irrelevant. If her mother was BORN in Spain, then yes, it should be integrated, but according to the information she was not. Since she is "of descent", it's completely irrelevant, and "it's absurd to waste time integrating irrelevant nonsense. . .what is the source for those who claim that [Shakira's mother was born in Spain]? 63.204.117.233 20:34, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

vivirlatino.com states that her mother is Colombian. If she was a Spaniard, it wouldn't have said Colombian. Because she is Colombian, it is unnecessary to say she is of Spanish descent; the majority of Latin Americans are of this ancestry.

• Don't be ridiculous some Colombians are of native and some of Black too. I think it is nessary to mention her mother's ethnicity as Catalan and itain as it is done with all other people regardless of which country they come from.

that thing she does with her voice

What is that thing she does with her voice? is it a technique or what? you would think that there would be something about her singing style. She's the only person that I've ever heard sing like that.

68.77.109.193 19:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)amyanda2000

• I don't know but in that regard she sounds sort of like Alanis Morrisette. ~Chris ^t.c.e.@ 13:19, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

"That thing she does with her voice"... what, sing? Any chance you could elaborate? Demonic Duck 18:20, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

S/he's referring to Shakira's "curling" of her voice. She flips out of falsetto very quickly in both directions. It somewhat sounds like yodeling, or when an adolescent's voice breaks - except she has infinitely more control over it than most singers. Alanis does it as well (particularly in her first album). Celine Dion sings this way every now and then as well, but it isn't a characteristic of her style as much as it is Shakira's. If you listen, Sarah Mclachlan uses the same technique when she sings, but she flips in and out of falsetto much more slowly, and for greater periods of time. Listen to most of the songs on (say) Surfacing to hear her do it (for example, in Angel, when she sings "fly aWaaaaaay, from here", she flips into her falsetto in "way").

It's one of my favorite parts of Shakira's voice. :^) That and her vibrato, and her low end.

I do agree that there should be mention of it in the article - as well as mention of her linguistic abilities in English, Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, and Italian (or French - I don't remember which).

--Osx85 20:12, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Older comments

Didn't Gloria Estefan provide English translations for Ojos Así and some of her other Spanish-language songs?

I would not be surprised. I heard Shakira in an English language interview and from that I doubt that she is able to write (or even sing...) songs in English herself. I also have doubts about the truth and NPOV of She is fluent in English, Spanish, Arabic, Portuguese, and Italian. 213.51.209.230 22:49, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC

She is not really fluent in Arabic or Portugueses. Her dad does speak some Arabic but she knows just basic stuff. Before she worked with Emilio Estefan her ancestry was never in the picture..I guess it was good marketing, she even took some bellydance courses where I used to go, then I heard "ojos asi" and I was not surprise (Raniya 05:52, 14 December 2005 (UTC)).

Shakira's Portuguese skills are very good. During Laundry Service promotion in Brazil she conducted many interviews in Portuguese (and not forgetting the three Portuguese tracks on The Remixes). And the English version of Inevitable was also performed at the 1999 ALMA awards.

Gloria Estefan translated Ojos Así and Ciega, Sordomuda (never released). She also translated Inevitable, a song Shakira only sang once, on the Rosie o Donnel Show.

Before the crossover the plan was to translate her spanish songs, however Shakira didnt feel comfortable with those translations and decided to master the english language to write new songs directly in english.

---

I don't think that the explanation of Shakira as "woman of grace" here is quite correct. I have consulted three reference books that deal with Arabic names (A Dictionary of First Names by Patrick Hanks & Flavia Hodges, Oxford, 1990; Digest of Muslim Names by Fatimah Suzanne Al Ja'fari, Amana Publications, 1997; and The Complete Book of Muslim and Parsi Names by Maneka Gandhi and Ozair Hussein, Penguin Books India, 2004) and they all say that Shakira means "grateful, thankful" in Arabic. --Clevelandkentevans 13:45, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Clevelandkentevans, Babynames.com translates shakira as Thankful. --Puerto.rico 16:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

---

whatever, I don't give a "$%%$&^%". just enjoy the best songs of her if you like them, lol... just enjoy the music and don't care about singers profile because they don't give us moeny to care about them, do they???

---

My english teacher said he saw her at south beach in Miami, Florida last weekend.

Recent Edit

Looks good! Take care. ;=) Drdr1989 03:03, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I'll add that the addition of "Lebanese" originally was to clear up any false notion of absense of mixed ancestry per a recent edition (just before mine). Plus it's great to know where the Arabian influence of such songs e.g., Ojos Asi come from. Drdr1989 03:14, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

She is not of mixed ancestry. Her mother is Catalan and her father is of catholic lebanese decent. Lebanese christians are not arab but no different to europeans so her mother and father are of the same race.

200.55.213.30

User:200.55.213.30 is continuing to vandalise this page after being warned repeatedly and after being previously blocked. I have requested that an administrator reblock this user. --Yamla 17:08, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

213.94.182.237

User:213.94.182.237 is making a VP vandalism also, but I'm a newb so I don't know how to report it. -August 1, 2006

García Márquez and crossover

Where the García Márquez phrase comes from? It will be interesting to know that. Mainly because I dont find quite important what he says. That Shakira makes unique music, etc. Thats too cheap talking for an Encyclopedia... iven coming from a Nobel Prize. Everybody is unique, etc.

It was either one of his biographies or the article he wrote for his magazine Hombre de Cambio in June 1999.

Why dont you evaluate the to "eras" of Shakira, pre and post crossover. She changes a lot, beguining by her hair color... What period is more interesting? How much identity she had to sacrifice to bizz?

external links

Was reverting from a version that left out some links. What does that have to do with link spam? And why is there only one link left?? Lharvill 05:00, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Please see WP:EL for Wikipedia's policy on external links. Wikipedia is not a link repository; this article used to be. --Yamla 16:54, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Second single from "Oral Fixation 2"

The second single has not been decided yet. From her official site: "YOU'VE GOT MAIL FROM SHAKIRA!: Hey guys! Sometime soon, at the beggining of the next year, I'll be shooting my new video. I'd like to know which one you all think should be my next single out of Oral Fixation Vol. 2. I'll be waiting on your reply, so please don't take long writing me back! Thanks a lot y muchos besitos! Shakira". Then, you're redirected to: http://www.shakira.com/OralFijacion/content/connection/youvegotmail/songpoll_en.html where you can choose one of the tracks from Oral Fixation Vol. 2. Marianin 18:46, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Shakira's quotes

The quotes made by Shakira have been moved to WikiQuote, a side prodject of the Wikimedia Foundation. Therefore, the quotes are not required in the Wikipedia article that is Shakira. Thank you. For more information, contact my talk page. —Hollow Wilerding . . . (talk) 14:27, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Quotes do not belong in the main article about the subject, in this case that being Shakira. They belong at WikiQuote Shakira, another project of Wikimedia. The current project that we are socializing in is known as Wikipedia. Being an encyclopedia, quotes are not given a section of their own, and only featured in an article when attempting to help improve the quality of the writing. Please see the Wikibox that has been placed beside the "External links" in the Shakira section. —Hollow Wilerding . . . (talk) 22:00, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Stomach Image!

The stomach picture needs to go and {{reqimage}} {{disputed}} --Jingofetts 20:19, 29 December 2005 (UTC) what do you think?

It is also copyright protected: I believe it's either from WireImage, Getty Images or FilmMagic.

If you mean the one at the top, I agree. It's a horrible shot of her, she's making a weird face, her body looks freaky...she's a beautiful woman, there must be flattering photos out there.. 68.107.251.122 03:10, 22 June 2006 (UTC)Mara

Better picutres are always wellcome, but let's not forget our preference for free-licensed images. See ya. --Abu Badali 03:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

And apparently a preference for ugly pictures. Check out Carmen Electra, for example. Wahkeenah 03:28, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Honestly. She doesn't walk around with a butterface 99% of time. It would be better if we added an album picture if it was this hard to find a live one. --Osx85 20:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

birthplace

Someone changed this recently, is he right? Rich Farmbrough. 22:29, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

CHANGES!

It's hard to know where to start with this article. It needs serious revisions to style and grammar, and there's so much adolescent POV that it reads like a 13yr old's book report on a magazine article. Anyone agree? I don't want to tread on any toes and start hacking away at someone's labour of love... Cravenmonket 23:59, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I thought a major copy-edit on this article was done months ago. Then again, it was months ago; therefore, many "adolescent" edits have been made since then. Drdr1989 01:48, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

incomplete

What did Shakira exactly say on MtV (trL) when a jewish fan called her? Is it true that she is racist? Why do people respect her when all she does is sell sex?

Rumour. And what is the matter with you? If someone adds bellydance to a performance, it does not mean they "sell sex" (you're not only insulting fans, but professional dancers). You will find that the only part of her body widely discussed by fans is her hair. (Spanglish 20:30, 16 March 2006 (UTC))

"Satirized"

How can one credibly claim that MadTV is an authority on satirization: "Some critics claimed that Shakira's English skills were too weak for her to write in it (she was satirized in a MAD TV sketch)" MAD TV is a third-rate sketch-show that abuses uncomfortable anti-social characterizations with B-list talent (at best). Not even SNL has the cultural authority to satirize and indict pop-culture anymore. Its quality and appeal has fallen flat. That mantel has been overtaken by Chappelle Show (though on hiatus).

• My point is that illustrating "critics' " point that Shakira is not a native-English speaker with a MAD TV example just doesn't cut it. MAD TV is not part of our contemporary zeitgeist and is an irrelevant illustration. This illustration ought be removed as impotent and uninformative.

Devout catholic?

Could it please be noted that the statement that Shakira is a devout catholic is questionable at best and should therefore not be part of this page? For example, I would think devout catholics are opposed to sex before marriage (which Shakira isn't) and that they would certainly not be able to write a song like How Do You Do.

Well, it's devout and you don't have to be perfect to be devout. I know a couple of devout catholics who have had sex before/outside of marriage (before implies that there is to be a marriage)

Death Hoax??

Has there ever been a death hoax for Shakira? I could swear that I heard or read somewhere that she had died, then again with me it could just as easily have been a dream. Cryomaniac 22:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Umm... 68.22.253.39 22:46, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll take that to mean that I dreamt it then... Cryomaniac 21:07, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I just heard her on the radio featuring Eminem.

Or was it the other way around? Either way I couldn't find eithers name in either article and/or several related articles. The song in question was Without me/Whenever, Wherever although this particular track may have been called something different.--Greasysteve13 10:39, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

It was probably a "mashup" where a DJ (or anyone) will mix two or more songs together. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.194.95.222 (talk • contribs) .

La Tortura

Within this article, this statement is made: "The lead single "La Tortura" (English: The Torture, featuring Alejandro Sanz) eventually reached number one in Spain and number twenty-three on the U.S. Billboard Hot 100, the highest position for a Spanish song in the United States." This either needs to be clarified or removed, as there are other Spanish-language songs which have, in the past, peaked higher. Examples include "Eres Tu" by Mocedades and the Los Lobos remake of "La Bamba." I know "La Tortura" had a notable run atop the Hot Latin Tracks chart, but is there a real Hot 100 feat to which this statement is alluding, or does it simply need to be removed as inaccurate? GassyGuy 00:26, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, "La Bamba" holds the distinction of being the only spanish song to reach #1 on the Billboard charts.

She's Colombian BORN. Not "Colombian"

People sometimes think that she is "Colombian", but actually, if we want to be accurate, she technically is NOT colombian, she is colombian BORN ! In fact she does not have a single colombian gene in her entire body ! Now ok she is a colombian CITIZEN, as she was born there! But there IS a DIFFERENCE between where someone is born and what their genetic (or "ethnic") background is. Therefore, for the sake of ACCURACY and CLARITY, it should be stated that Shakira is Colombian BORN, but genetically/ethnically is NOT colombian and is in fact a mixture of spanish, Italian and Lebanese genetics/ethnicity! - Plex 30.5.2006

• So, by that logic, no person of European ancestry born in the USA is "American"? Wahkeenah 17:35, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
• In fact, that other user is right. There is no one who has a "Colombian gene". Wahkeenah 18:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with ethnicity/race. She was born in Colombia and she is a Colombian citizen, so that makes her Columbian. --Musicpvm 21:44, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

• Shakira is Colombian because she describes herself as Colombian. I've seen pictures of her mother and I call BS on claims to her exclusive European ancestry. Her mom has the proverbial cactus on her forehead.--Zacatl 01:36, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

• Zacat please dont make unsupported statements. You clearly haven't seen Shakira's mother. http://img.terra.com.br/i/2003/10/24/83103_ga.jpg

this is a link to a picture of her with her mother and father. It is obvious that her mother is of European decent and does not have native colombian blood.

• uh, there's no colombian genetics, or even creed. "native colombian blood" could possibly be said about the indiginous people alone. the majority of the population is mestizo, and there's an abundance of 'white' people about. everyone has european ancestry to varying amounts. even if her lineage is more closely european, ethnicity is is more than enough to qualify a person as belonging from a certain nation, since enculturation is what actually matters.

• This discussion is so stupid. There are no NATIONALITY genes!... We are talking about nationality? Ethnia? Race? Latin-America identity is being [mestizo] (the mayority of latin americans are mestizos), that means: Mix of European and Native American ancestry. That point is extended to the culture of Latin American Nations too.

Now, she is Colombian, cause that’s her nationality. Period. Gonzakun

fair use of MTV screenshot

I believe it is fair use to use the MTV screenshot, low-res version, to identify the MTV awards that Shakira was a part of. See fair use for program ID. It would not be fair use if the caption did not mention the program---but it does. 69.142.21.24 03:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

...anyway, we now have a free alternative and there's no need to use taht one. --Abu Badali 14:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Picture

I think the picture of her at the Wal-Mart shareholders meeting is unflattering. The picture of her receiving the MTV award is better and should be reinstated as the main picture at the top of the article. SCRA5071 22:12, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The Wal-Mart picture is released under a creative commons license, thus we cannot claim fair use for the copyrighted MTV picture in the infobox because we have a "free" picture already. See Wikipedia:Image use policy for more info and Wikipedia:Public domain image resources to find a better image if you wish. -- getcrunk ? 22:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Found new free photo, hope this one is better. Dbertman 15:08, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

- Please, Somebody change that infamous picture for Christ sake!! Gonzakun

- Well, It's done. You are welcome. Gonzakun

As discussed, free images should be prefered. I reverted it. --Abu Badali 13:42, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Erm, many other pages don't have free pictures, if there aren't any good ones. E.g. there are very unflattering pictures of Drew Barrymore, but the main picture is from one of her movies. So why not a screencap from one of her videos?

I used a picture from Hips Don't Lie, I realize it isn't free. But it is fairuse, and we can roll with it for now. Yanksox 13:28, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia's fair use policies, we can't claim fair use when there's a free alternative. We're building a free encyclopedia. Finding free images is part of the task. I'll take a look at the Brew Barrymore article. If there are free images available for this person, we shouldn't be using non-free ones. Not even screenshots. --Abu Badali 03:13, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

It seems as if you're going out of your way to keep the butterfaced Walmart picture. Add me to the list of people thinking it should be changed. One man's vendetta against Shakira shouldn't determine her picture on the second-most popular Shakira page on the internet. --Osx85 20:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

The picture is outdated. This image however is from this year , the other picture barely resembles what she looks like and should not be used on the article. - Deathrocker 03:50, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

As stated above, and as it's explained in the comment in the article, we can't replace a free image for a copyrighted one. This image is going to be deleted as it's obsoleted by the free one. With your gentle permission, I'll be changing the article back to it's original form. Please, do not readd the unfree image. --Abu Badali 04:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The poor quality image which you insist on going against community concensus to use does not even have vertifiable free image rights as per Image_talk:ShakiraRipoll_cropped.jpg... the source which you provided is one way commentry, it does not actually show the owner agreeing to allow the image to be used in such a manner, as you claimed.

Thus a more recent (better quality) image should be inplace of one which is not even vertifiably free in the first place. - Deathrocker 05:09, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Check carefully. The image is indeed "have vertifiable free image rights". I've already left a message at your talk page and at the commons image page. Best wishes. --Abu Badali 07:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

η== Language == What happened to the sentence that said she spoke fluent Spanish, Arabic, English, Italian, and Portuguese? Is it not true? --Speakslowly 06:45, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I doubt it. Maybe three of them. Drdr1989 02:37, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Even if it's just three, it should be in the article, as it's a notable part of her identity. I'm adding English, Spanish, and Portuguese back. --Osx85 20:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Her name

I heard it means 'grateful', is it true ? 86.16.112.11 04:25, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

theres different translations in arabic it could be full of grace or grateful. shakira says she identifies more with the second translation. I think it also means godess of light in hebrew. shakilover 20:36, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

macedonian?

wow, are u serious, where did u get that from

just a dumbass, who is writing this in the german wikipedia as well, then he uses the english wikipedia as a source.

clever guy, ey. --85.180.38.127 20:44, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Trivia

I've removed the following trivia section and placed it here so we can decide if it's important enough or relevant enough for the article. I'm usually a defender of trivia, but this doesn't seem necessary

"== Trivia ==

- Shakira was selected as part of a tourism promotion in Tunisia, the artist who had recently started her tour and also smashed Nº1's in several countries with "Hips Don't Lie" was very demanding, such as the organizers decided to turn out the offer to Mariah Carey who was finally selected to perform and the concert will be part of "The Adventures Of Mimi Tour".

- Shakira was named back as La Colita of 1996 in Colombia and did a bikini session as honored the award.

- Usually MTV Unplugged series bring new songs to fans, in the Shakira's case she performed almost of the songs of her second album and the hit singles of "Pies Descalzos". The album did included a different version of "Ciega Sordo Muda" with a Mexican Mariachi group.

- Shakira was booed in Spain while she performed in English in her Mangoose Tour, since then her tours in latinamerican countries are very meticulous with the tracklist avoiding sing songs in English. In the Oral Fixation Tour she only performed 5 songs in English.

- Shakira was considered at her beginning as the "Latin Alanis Morissete". Although the nickname was then dismissed after she changed her rock style to a more pop sound.

- Fans in latinamerica have a pre-laundry service and post- laundry service era. While some fans stayed on her Pre - Laundry Service release when she was rocky, less worked out and with more in deep lyrics. Others followed her career until now. It's well known the quote "Me gustaba cuando cantaba en español" (I liked her when she sang in Spanish) Though she still does sing in Spanish, some fans considered she doesn't anymore.

- Hips Don't Lie wasn't in the initial tracklist of Oral Fixation Vol. 2. Based on low accepting of Don't Bother worldwide and low sales in US, Epic decided to re-released the album with Hips Don't Lie and a Spanglish version of La Tortura. Fans who didn't have the re-released but already owned the original version could download the songs in her webpage. Then the fans realized the versions weren't compatible to MP3 Players.

- Before Hips Don't Lie was delivered as second single, Shakira asked fans to vote for a possible second single to the album." Yanksox 22:35, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

First two major albums

Why is there barely even any mention of Pies Descalzos and ¿Dónde Están Los Ladrones? Yes, they're described on their own pages, but we still have to know how they fit into her chronology, etc. I'll try and start this if no one else does... --Galaxiaad 23:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Award list

There is non award list

-- 80.140.219.244

Belly Dancing For Shyness?

I seem to have heard in other places that her grandmother or someone taught it to her so she'd stay true to her Arabic roots. And the citation stated says, to me, that it helped her overcome shyness, but not that she learned it for that specific purpose. Sorry if I'm just confused, or something, but could someone clear this up? She Mourns 01:22, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it needs to be stated that shakiras father is of christian Lebanese decent since there is a huge ethnic and racial difference between Muslim and Christians in Lebanon. Even though everyone in Lebanon speaks Arabic because of the Arab conquest, the Christian Lebanese people are of Phoenician, Armenian, greek and French decent whereas the Muslims have Arab blood. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.11.241.43 (talk • contribs)

Sure, that's fine, but my question still hasn't been answered... 68.159.133.87 05:14, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Estoy aqui

I know you americans know Shakira 2001 to present but she was a big phenomenon in Latin America with Estoy Aqui [end of 1996-begin of 1997]

Catalan descent

I'm not sure how well-known this is to people from the Americas (I didn't know till I went to Barcelona)... Catalonia is legally a part of Spain but historically separate, with a different language, etc. There have been political changes and tension there for years, over things like which language to teach in schools and over Catalonia's independence. There are even revolutionary/terrorist groups, and in Barcelona there is graffiti from both sides everywhere. This is all to say that people come to Wikipedia to promote those agendas, so when someone changes "Catalan" to "Spanish" here, it should (in general) be treated as vandalism... I'm not on either side in the debate, but Catalonia is definitely separate from Spain in at least some ways, so it's a more specific description than just "Spanish". (If someone legitimately believes that her mother is not of Catalan descent, they should provide a reference or at least bring it up on the talk page. Of course, it would be good to have a reference saying that she is of Catalan descent.) Also of course, this is all just how I see it, and if anyone wants to discuss it more, I'd be glad to. --Galaxiaad 20:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Galaxiaad, you were obvioulsy very impressed by certain group of radical separatist Catalonias that feel free to voice their own personal opinions to foreigners as if they represented the mayority of the people who live there. You should consider for a moment if you are the one defending an agenda. For example, why are you calling a vandal somebody who writes Spanish? isn't that a little bit extreme?? Spain is a country with a very rich and diverse past, all within the territory of Spain. Be safe and stay away from those who are still fighting the ghost of Francisco Franco. In the meantime, while Catalonia continues to be one of the Autonomous communities of Spain keep Spanish descent. Feel free to change it if Catalonia becomes a country. (Caracas1830 01:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC))

I guess my post came off a little strong. I didn't mean it should be treated as a separate country, but if it has its own language and culture, it is, like I said, at least in some ways a separate entity (would it be less contentious to say "different" from the whole of Spain rather than "separate"? as I said, I think "Spanish" is also a description of Catalan people who live in Spain, just not as specific). As far as I can see it's equivalent to saying someone is of Native American descent, or Québécois (and the same reason as why it sounds bizarre to say "of New Jersey descent", but is perfectly normal to say "of Puerto Rican descent" or "of Hawaiian descent", though all three are parts of the U.S.). With regard to calling them vandals, I think that an anonymous user who comes in for the sole purpose of changing references to "Catalan people" to "Spanish" is indeed a vandal. Users fitting that description are the only ones I've seen make these edits. Obviously each edit should be taken on an individual basis, I just wanted to let people know why this keeps getting changed, if they didn't already. --Galaxiaad 01:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

With regard to the political issue, perhaps the closer example would be a Québécois. Yet even in that case, take for example Celine Dion. Her article says French-Canadian...notice Canadian, because Quebec is Canada. The bottom line is that we don't even know if her mother was born or grew up in Catalonia(most likely in Colombia) or in other parts of Spain. Just because her last name is Ripoll, it does not make her Catalonian and she has another last name (her mother's) Torrado; so why Ripoll takes preference over Torrado??? both descents are important.. don't you think?(Caracas1830 03:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC))

OK, that (with regard to her mother's name) makes sense (I still don't quite agree that we should only state a person's descent in terms of the political nation they're from, but I don't want to get caught in an uncivil argument when we can compromise instead). In at least a few articles, people have come to a compromise and written "Catalan Spanish" (see Montserrat Caballé and José Carreras). How would that be? --Galaxiaad 06:45, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Torrado seems to be a Castilian surmane[1], so is she Castilian-Catalan-Spanish? are we going to choose one over the other? why? The difference with Caballé and Carreras is that we have more information about them(born in Barcelona, they grew up in Catalonia), while at the same time it seems we don't know much about Shakira's mother. Until we have more specific information about her my suggestion will be to stay with Spanish because is more general and includes both Castilian and Catalan.(Caracas1830 01:44, 27 July 2006 (UTC))

I don't know if this helps but.... she is quoted as saying here "I am a blend of several cultures. Through my veins runs Spanish, Lebanese and Italian blood. All of this heritage is a strong influence on the character of my music." - Deathrocker 01:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

• I think a lot of americans get the image of a native South American Indian when you mention the word Spanish. For this reason I think it would be best to be more detailed in the discription even if you do write Catalan-Castillian Spanish. Just to prevent confusion in some people who are ignorant.

(Sorry for my English) The current "Spanish-Catalan" word is wrong. Catalonia is (unfortunately) only an autonomous comunity in Spain. Culturally they are a independent people, exactly like Euskal Herria or Castilla -- Don't forget Spain is only a set of cultures. It is like saying "English - British", a fully redundant sentence. btw, my surnames are catalan and vasque, and I'm from Castilla -- Here we're nationalist too, but this subject is irrelevant now. Please, do not feed nationalism here. Its not the place.

Yeah, English-British is wrong because it's redundant, but no one would have a problem with calling someone just English, because the British part is implied. Charlotte Church is referred to in the intro of that article as Welsh, etc. I don't think Spanish-Catalan or Catalan-Spanish make sense, but Catalan Spanish (without the hyphen) might be OK. The hyphen makes it sound like the two things are separate (see Hyphenated American), so you can say African-American but not African American (the latter is contradictory) and Black American but not Black-American (as that implies Blacks are not generally part of America, or that Black is its own country). At any rate, you're right about the nationalism thing. Wikipedia shouldn't shy away from issues just because they're controversial, but maybe it's too much debate over an unimportant topic (Shakira's mother) and we should just leave it out. --Galaxiaad 00:09, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

GA Result

There are 7 things that must pass before an article reaches GA status. I have reviewed it and the result is as follows:

1. Well-written: Pass
2. Factually accurate: Pass
3. Broad: Pass
4. Neutrally written: Pass
5. Stable: Pass
6. Well-referenced: Pass
7. Images: Pass

Well done, the GA has passed successfully —Minun ^Spiderman 19:40, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

WHOOOOO! I knew my copyediting would come in handy! Yanksox 12:53, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I delisted it, for now,

1. refs need to be converted to inline citation, as this type of article needs it, and the few that has them needs to be fixed.
2. Trivia section is considered to be uncyclopedic.
3. Image:LaundryService.jpg needs a fair use rationale.
4. Needs a copyedit in some parts

Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 22:33, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Picrture should be replaced

The main picture of Shakira should be replaced by a worhtier one, the current one does not help this article as a whole. The picture itself seems to be appropiate for this article. There are far better looking ones of her. It has been replaced for a better version but someone keeps changing it to this unworthy photograph. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Toosmart215 (talk • contribs) .

Learn the Wikipedia:Image use policy; if you can find a better free image go for it. Please sign your posts. — getcrunk what?! 22:30, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

That is a horrible picture though. Horses In The Sky ^{talk contributions}

It's a photoshopped image, anyway. She doesn't have that large a chin no matter what angle you use. . .

Hey!!

Well there have pictures already replaced for the current one but someone just keeps changing it to this ugly one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Toosmart215 (talk • contribs) .

Learn the Wikipedia:Image use policy; if you can find a better free image go for it. Please sign your posts. — getcrunk what?! 22:30, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Shakira's Height

on the page of famous short women, she's listed as 4'11! is that true?

I found several sources on the Internet saying she is 5ft2in (157 cm), so I removed her from that list. -- TexMurphy 08:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

ARAB ETHNICITY

Every time i check Shakira's wikipage, her ethnicity has been changed! What is wrong with people? When it is written she is "Lebanese", almost instantly it is corrected to "Catholic Lebanese". What is the big deal? It seems there are some obsessed Christians who cannot bare to think that Shakira is associated with Lebanon (an arab country). In actual fact, Lebanon is a very diverse country with a great demography- to enlighten yourself, check out the Lebanon wikipage. And in response to a previous comment on this page ("Recent Edit"Drdr1989), it is not true when its written that Catholic Lebanese are not arabs. In actual fact they are. The vast majority of Arabs in the United States are in fact Christian, not Muslim. There are indeed many thousands of Christian Arabs in the world, so it should not be assumed that Arabs are always Muslim. Shakira is of Lebanese descent and when she descirbes it, you never hear her add in ..."but im Catholic". She is proud of her Arab hertiage and demonstrates this by influencing her choice of music, lyrics and dancing (the song 'Ojos Asi' and her frequent bellydancing in her music videos).

Furthermore, in response to a further comment (by She Mourns 01:22, 22 July 2006 (UTC)): Please do not generalise when you say the Christian Lebanese are of "Phoenician, aramaic, greek..." descent. I am indeed a Christian Lebanese along with 30% of the population of Lebanon and would identify myself as Arab; because i speak Arabic, live in an Arab country, practise Arabic traditions and customs and conform to the Arabic culture. And although a lot of us Christian Lebanese have "Phoenician, aramaic, greek.." and so forth blood, in the centuries the Arabs have occupied Lebanon, the mix over and cross-breeding (as i put it) of Arabs and non-Arabs is particularly high and many Christian Lebanese (and Syrians, Egyptians and so forth) have Arab blood. Please try and understand this, and to help you understand visit the Wikipage on Arabs, to check out "who exactly is an Arab?" and what identifies one as Arab; and Shakira (or her father as it is) would definately come under a few classifications. Just as one can be a Jew but not actually follow Judaism, an understanding of the etymology of a word has to take place before people start to panick over such labelings.

People need to relax and stop obsessing over her ethnicity. If it is written that she has Lebanese blood, than this is the truth. If it is written she is has Catholic Lebanese blood, then this is also the truth. It is up to people who read the page to read about Lebanon too. However, those who wish to disassociate Shakira with her Arab ancestry are illogical and will fail, and if they were true fans of the singer, would not be so sensitive in having her real ethnicity detailed.

Written by a Christian Arab. Please do not edit/delete. by User:Tismail2

The comment wasn't made by 'she mourns' but by 196.11.241.43 see [2]. --Inahet 18:03, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Apologies to 'she mourns' then. That '196.11..." needs to understand then. And thanks for bringing it to my attention Inahet. Time 16.36 21 August 2006 (By the Christian Arab)

I agree with the first statement, and I've gone ahead and removed "Catholic Lebanese" to just "Lebanese" because you cannot be a descendant of Catholic, that is a religion not a country. You can come from a Catholic background, but why include that alongside the fact that she's Lebanese? To make people comfortable that she's not Muslim? That's ignorant and useless information, at least right next to the word Lebanese.--Speakslowly 02:57, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

• Lebanese Christians do not have any Arab blood. You people are trying to fight science and history, Come on. Don't be ridiculous! Shakira has never refered to herself as Arab!

Please sign your name next time. You should refer to the Wikipedia page Arab, the term is used for speakers of Arabic and also of the ethnic group. Nobody mentioned Arab by the way, only you did. Allow me to educate you: Lebanon is a country, meaning that if you were born there you are Lebanese. Shakira is half Lebanese because her father is of Lebanese descent. If you're trying to argue that Shakira has no affiliation with Lebanon/ Arabs then you are wrong. Her name is Arabic, meaning "woman full of grace" and the name Mebarak is a very common Arabic surname. As for placing a religion in front of a nationality/ ethnic group, it makes no sense. If you'd like to say that she is Christian, that is fine with me. However I have a problem placing her religion right in front of the word Lebanese because you and others wants to ensure that nobody assumes that because it does not say "Christian", people might think Shakira is Muslim. Why didn't you put that her mother is a Christian Colombian? Because it sounds ridiculous and religion and nationaly are two different things. Do not add Christian before Lebanon again unless you have a valid argument that makes sense. By the way your statement about fighting science and history is bogus, it fails all logic. --Speakslowly 03:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

• why can't you grasp history and genetics. The Article on Arabs here on wikipedia says that Lebanese Christians reject the term Arab. Or haven't you even read it? Shakira's mother named her what does a name or Language have to do with race? Arabs are from Arabia not Lebanon. The muslims are decended from those Arabians but not the Christians? Do you understand now why the term Christian next to Lebanese makes such a difference?

Shakira's father is a Lebanese Christian therefore not Arab

Lebanese Christians are ethnically and cuturally not Arabs. There have been some ridiculous statements made here by Arabists who are trying to deny who the Lebanese Christians are. When the Arabs invaded Lebanon, the original inhabitants, the Phoenicians, moved to the mountains where they were safe from the Arabs, who were desert people who weren't interested in the forests and the cold mountains. Because of Islamic law, any Arab who turned to Christianity was killed, therefore the Christian bloodlines remained Arab-free. Christians are thus of Phoenician, and of french, greek, armenian ect. decent. Even the Lebanese civil war was between the two religious groups because it was also an ethnic conflict.

Here is proof: http://phoenicia.org/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Christian_Nationalism:_The_Rise_and_Fall_of_an_Ethnic_Resistance

196.11.241.43, this is not the right venue for you to push your point of view. I also strongly suggest you actually read Arab. Please refrain from editing this article any further under WP:3RR and please do not push your point of view any further here. --Yamla 04:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

• Yamla the article on Arabs does confirm that Lebanese christians reject the term Arab. And it is a fact that Lebanese Christians do not have Arab blood, especially those decended from people who left the Middel East before the Civil war was over. Back then it was unheard of for Christians and Muslims to mix. Even today it is rare.

No it doesn't. It says, "Lebanese Maronites, for example, may reject the Arab label". They may reject the label. They don't always. And it is talking about Lebanese Maronites only. It specifically mentions that many Arabs are Christians and that, "In Lebanon they [that is, Arab Christians] now number about 39% of the population." --Yamla 04:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

• Yamla I suggest you click on this link.

http://phoenicia.org/ The Arabs have for very long tried to cover up the fact that Lebanese Christians are not Arab. It IS a FACT!

You'd do better to argue your point on Arab. It's completely off-topic here. But make sure you are citing reliable sources that adhere to WP:NPOV. Once again, this is completely off-topic here. --Yamla 04:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Shakira's ARAB Ethnicity CONTINUED...

Wow, i didnt realise i could start such a heated debate just by mentioning a few facts. However, this is EXACTLY what im talking about when i say people are OBSESSING over her ethnicity, as outlined in 'ARAB ETHNICITY'. I agree with 'speak slowly' to a great degree and i think other peoples views are absurd. I am a Christian Arab, from Lebanon and therefore I know what an Arab is and what a Christian is. I think its ridiculus to suggest that im an 'Arabist' just because im stating that Shakira has arabic heritage. Unfortunately, it is very hard to make points on this part of Shakira's ethnicity as she rarely talks about it and citations are required. However, i do not believe that Shakira would deny her Arab roots and this is because of one simple reason: When Shakira made it big in the West (US/UK etc) after the release of 'Whenever,Wherever' everyone was interested in the new emerging star and wanted to know where she was from. At first she was always labelled as the 'half colombian half lebanese' or moreover the half latina half arab. As we know when a star first emerges we do not know a lot of information about their heritage unless stated in an interview but Shakira never supressed the notion of the half latina half arab heritage. On the contrary, her desire to learn more arabic and get into contact with her arabic roots were displayed in interviews and in the Lebanese press she always portrayed such arab sympathy. This is further evident today in her appeals for calm in the latest Middle East Crisis involving Israel and Hezbollah showing great support for the Lebanese people.

If we look at the classification of the Arab in the Arab wikipage under 'Who is an Arab?' and specificaly the Arab League (the 22 Arab states) classification it reads:

On its formation in 1946, the Arab League defined an "Arab" as follows:

"An Arab is a person whose language is Arabic, who lives in an Arabic speaking country, who is in sympathy with the aspirations of the Arabic speaking peoples."

Now on that basis, Shakira could amost be classed as an Arab herself as she meets criteria 1 and 3. However, her father, the actual person in question would CERTAINLY be classed as Arab as he meets all three criteria stated.

As a Christian Arab along with all of my Christian Arab friends (from Palestine, Iraq and Syria, we believe some of the oppinions raised regarding Shakira's Arab ethnicity are truely pathethic and it is as 'speak slowly' suggest, attempts to disassociate Shakira with her ethnicity because of RELIGIOUS connections. It is truely all about religion and how some Christians cant accept the Arab label because it is seen as a Muslim feature. As educated humans we have to question the motives of some of these Christian extremists who have little understanding of the minorities present in the Middle East. Indeed if you go to areas in the Levant you will see many Christian Arab communities who identify as Arabs and this is of no problem to them or the Muslim Arabs they live with. It is as if to say that one ethnicity has to be one religion, though we all know this is untrue.

Apologies for lack of clarity and eloquence in my argument but i hope the point is perceived by others. It is my duty as an Arab and a Christian to expell false notions of my people to people who are indeed ignorant, and it is a pity that this ignorance obscures their eyes from the truth. Many thanx. By the Christian Arab User:Tismail2 13:10 25 August 2006

• You are so uneducated, you don't even know that "Latina" isn't an ethnicity but only means you are from Latin America. It has nothing to do with genes. This means Shakira is 100% Latina because it is where she is from. Just like Gezelle is 100% Latina even though she is of German decent.

- Just by reading both of the above Christian Arab and the other one (Not Signed).. you can tell that the Non-Signed respond is full of none sense.. and it shows what type of racist backround he came from..... Cruize.

People who delete posts.

Users like Tsmail who delete posts here in the discussion forum will not get away with it. You are trying to force your lies on people without being open to the truth. Do it again and you will be reported. The fact is that one can only be an "Arabic speaking christian" not a "Christian Arab.