Talk:Frisian(s)

Requested Move

Friesian → Frisian Frisian is by far more common spelling than Friesian, which is used almost exculsively for the horse type, and not for the people and language. --Hottentot 20:57, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

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Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Oppose. Friesian is also an acceptable spelling with Frisian according to my dictionaries. Marco79 14:15, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Note: This user had been around for nine minutes when this wote was cast. Stefán Ingi 20:33, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I've been around for a lot longer than 9 minutes, say many months as an anon using IP addresses: 203.164.18x.xxx and signing comments with the name Mark (when associated with 203.164.18x.xxx). Haukur and others can confirm this. Marco79 15:47, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

With this new information in mind I fully agree that your vote should be counted. I'm glad you decided to get an account. Stefán Ingi 16:58, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose. The page is a disambiguation page, there are more items on it which are called Friesian than Frisian. If somebody makes the argument that the people are more commonly known than the animals then I might be convinced to change my vote. Stefán Ingi 20:33, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose by far the most common usage of this name in the UK is for cattle and horse. --Philip Baird Shearer 23:19, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
• Support. For me, the islands, people and languages are the primary associations and meanings. I hardly even remember the other meanings. In addition, people and languages are more important than horses and cows. -Hapsiainen 00:58, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
• Weak support. I didn't even know of the animal meanings. I'm somewhat sympathetic to Stefán's argument, though. In any case neither result is a catastrophe. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 22:44, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
• Support. As with Hapsiainen, my immediate association with the term is with the ethnic terms, not with the animals. Olessi 20:03, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

Google:

• about 54,800 English pages for Friesian site:.uk. -- Seems to be mainly about cattle and horse.
• about 44,400 English pages for Frisian site:.uk -- Seems to be mainly about the language and the place.
• about 18,100 English pages for Friesian horse site:.uk.
• about 1,120 English pages for Frisian horse site:.uk.
• about 17,700 English pages for Friesian cattle site:.uk
• about 362 English pages for Frisian cattle site:.uk
• about 1,370 English pages for Friesian language site:.uk
• about 21,000 English pages for Frisian language site:.uk

Googling the BBC site confirms the general pattern:

• 97 English pages from bbc.co.uk for Friesian --About animals eg http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1408000/1408434.stm
• 107 English pages from bbc.co.uk for Frisian --About the language and people eg http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/beyond/factsheets/makhist/makhist4_prog4b.shtml

Interestingly this last page refers to the place as Friesland "Yet Frisian is still spoken in the province of Friesland in the Netherlands and is the Germanic language most closely resembling modern English." but this is not reflected googling for the islands:

• about 289 English pages for "Friesian islands" site:.uk
• about 2,510 English pages for "Frisian islands" site:.uk.

--Philip Baird Shearer 23:20, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

As usual I don't like google tests and in addition I think the conclusions drawn of this one are are quite strange. 55/44 I would never describe as "by far" the most common. Also "Friesian horse site:uk" and "Friesian cattle site:uk" will have overlap, specifically "friesian cattle -horse site:uk" gives 13,900 and "friesian -cattle horse site:uk" gives 14,400, that tops the 21,400 for "Frisian language site:uk" by 7,000 but of course "Frisian language" is going to miss a lot of pages about Frisian people. I don't know how to get them and anyway I think this number crunching is inaccurate and totally pointless. I'll continue to go by the number of items by each name. Stefán Ingi 00:02, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

you were not using the google.co.uk search engine. However it is little to do with Google tests. I put those in to show that both spellings are used in the UK and that by far the most common diary cow in Britain is the Friesian[1]. If anyone comes across a Friesian in daily life it will be of the bovine variety. One would be hard-pressed to travel more than a few miles outside a major town in England and not see Friesian cattle. Any child learning about the were milk comes from in the UK will usually be shown pictures of Friesian cows and if they are called anything other than black and white cows it will be Friesian cows. --Philip Baird Shearer 23:25, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Apart from the first sentence of this reply, which is wrong, I heartily agree with it. Let me therefore not spend time detailing my annoyance that you included this first sentence. Stefán Ingi 00:14, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Outcome

Move not completed due to lack of consensus. Rob Church ^Talk 11:33, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[No title]

Friesian means from Friesland, pertaining to Friesland or to something that originated in Friesland. In the Dutch province of Friesland the people spell their country as 'Friesland' a spelling kept the same for over a millenium. Friesian the language, has hardly changed in that time, unlike English. The people of the Netherlands call the people there "Friezen", the Anglosized version of which should be Friesians (rather than Frieslanders). The farmers from Friesland were (still are) breeding cattle and also horses for hundreds of years by way of careful selecting the best to a set of criteria and recording (1) the breeding lines carefully. They were known as Friesian cattle and ditto horses as they came from Friesland's breeding program. So why some of us felt compelled to drop the i is a bit of a mystery and in any case it is wrong as it seems the result of casualness, sloppy spelling.

Even if through this process of copying the wrong spelling is widespread, it is not too late to mend their ways and go back to what's correct and logical.

Then again its a free world for some and one can write and spell whatever one pleases. Even spelling say the word Amerriken, is not illegal either, but is only slowly taking of..... I am against it like I am against spelling Frisian. I have been in Friesland. Great place, lakes, great sailing, lush green grass, historic towns, the "eleven towns skating contest" where one skates hundred of kilometres all day!(!) and everyone speaks at least two languages. Most of the Frieasans speak three, including English. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.129.38.30 (talk • contribs) 06:08, 4 December 2005.

It doesn't just refer to the Dutch province of Friesland, it can also refer to the larger region of Frisia. --Hottentot 06:15, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

The Frisian name for Frisia isn't even Friesland, but Fryslân. The proper (or traditional) English names and spellings are Frisia and Frisian. Friesian comes from improper knowledge of English orthographic tradition by Dutch speakers, the same who also write Zeeland and Zeelandic in place of Zealand and Zealandic, which are the traditional English spellings, but are also improperly spelt due to lack of knowledge of English spelling by well-intentioned contributors to Wikipedia.
-AvL 15 January 2006

Fryslân is the name for Frisia in the West Frisian language, but is it the same in the North and East Frisian languages? --Khoikhoi 22:16, 15 January 2006 (UTC)