Wikipedia:Deletion review
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For RfCs, community discussions, and to review closes of other reviews: |
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Deletion review (DRV) is for reviewing speedy deletions and outcomes of deletion discussions. This includes appeals to delete pages kept after a prior discussion.
If you are considering a request for a deletion review, please read the "Purpose" section below to make sure that is what you wish to do. Then, follow the instructions below.
Purpose
Deletion review may be used:
- if someone believes the closer of a deletion discussion interpreted the consensus incorrectly;
- if a speedy deletion was done outside of the criteria or is otherwise disputed;
- if significant new information has come to light since a deletion that would justify recreating the deleted page;
- if a page has been wrongly deleted with no way to tell what exactly was deleted; or
- if there were substantial procedural errors in the deletion discussion or speedy deletion.
Deletion review should not be used:
- because of a disagreement with the deletion discussion's outcome that does not involve the closer's judgment (a page may be renominated after a reasonable timeframe);
- (This point formerly required first consulting the deleting admin if possible. As per this discussion an editor is not required to consult the closer of a deletion discussion (or the deleting admin for a speedy deletion) before starting a deletion review. However doing so is good practice, and can often save time and effort for all concerned. Notifying the closer is required.)
- to point out other pages that have or have not been deleted (as each page is different and stands or falls on its own merits);
- to challenge an article's deletion via the proposed deletion process, or to have the history of a deleted page restored behind a new, improved version of the page, called a history-only undeletion (please go to Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion for these);
- to repeat arguments already made in the deletion discussion;
- to argue technicalities (such as a deletion discussion being closed ten minutes early);
- to request that previously deleted content be used on other pages (please go to Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion for these requests);
- to attack other editors, cast aspersions, or make accusations of bias (such requests may be speedily closed);
- for uncontroversial undeletions, such as undeleting a very old article where substantial new sources have subsequently arisen. Use Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion instead. (If any editor objects to the undeletion, then it is considered controversial and this forum may be used.)
- to ask for permission to write a new version of a page which was deleted, unless it has been protected against creation. In general you don't need anyone's permission to recreate a deleted page, if your new version does not qualify for deletion then it will not be deleted.
Copyright violating, libelous, or otherwise prohibited content will not be restored.
Instructions
Before listing a review request, please:
- Consider attempting to discuss the matter with the closer as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision.
- Check that it is not on the list of perennial requests. Repeated requests every time some new, tiny snippet appears on the web have a tendency to be counter-productive. It is almost always best to play the waiting game unless you can decisively overcome the issues identified at deletion.
Steps to list a new deletion review
 | If your request is completely non-controversial (e.g., restoring an article deleted with a PROD, restoring an image deleted for lack of adequate licensing information, asking that the history be emailed to you, etc), please use Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion instead. |
| 1. |
and paste the template skeleton at the top of the discussions (but not at the top of the page). Then fill in {{subst:drv2
|page=File:Foo.png
|xfd_page=Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2009 February 19#Foo.png
|article=Foo
|reason=
}} ~~~~
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| 2. |
Inform the editor who closed the deletion discussion by adding the following on their user talk page:
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For nominations to overturn and delete a page previously kept, attach |
| 4. |
Leave notice of the deletion review outside of and above the original deletion discussion:
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Commenting in a deletion review
Any editor may express their opinion about an article or file being considered for deletion review. In the deletion review discussion, please type one of the following opinions preceded by an asterisk (*) and surrounded by three apostrophes (''') on either side. If you have additional thoughts to share, you may type this after the opinion. Place four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your entry, which should be placed below the entries of any previous editors:
- Endorse the original closing decision; or
- Relist on the relevant deletion forum (usually Articles for deletion); or
- List, if the page was speedy deleted outside of the established criteria and you believe it needs a full discussion at the appropriate forum to decide if it should be deleted; or
- Overturn the original decision and optionally an (action) per the Guide to deletion. For a keep decision, the default action associated with overturning is delete and vice versa. If an editor desires some action other than the default, they should make this clear; or
- Allow recreation of the page if new information is presented and deemed sufficient to permit recreation.
- Some consider it a courtesy, to other DRV participants, to indicate your prior involvements with the deletion discussion or the topic.
| Examples of opinions for an article that had been deleted |
| *'''Endorse''' The original closing decision looks like it was sound, no reason shown here to overturn it. ~~~~ |
| *'''Relist''' A new discussion at AfD should bring a more thorough discussion, given the new information shown here. ~~~~ |
| *'''Allow recreation''' The new information provided looks like it justifies recreation of the article from scratch if there is anyone willing to do the work. ~~~~ |
| *'''List''' Article was speedied without discussion, criteria given did not match the problem, full discussion at AfD looks warranted. ~~~~ |
| *'''Overturn and merge''' The article is a content fork, should have been merged into existing article on this topic rather than deleted. ~~~~ |
| *'''Overturn and userfy''' Needs more development in userspace before being published again, but the subject meets our notability criteria. ~~~~ |
| *'''Overturn''' Original deletion decision was not consistent with current policies. ~~~~ |
Remember that deletion review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the action specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate.
The presentation of new information about the content should be prefaced by Relist, rather than Overturn and (action). This information can then be more fully evaluated in its proper deletion discussion forum. Allow recreation is an alternative in such cases.
Temporary undeletion
Admins participating in deletion reviews are routinely requested to restore deleted pages under review and replace the content with the {{TempUndelete}} template, leaving the history for review by everyone. However, copyright violations and violations of the policy on biographies of living persons should not be restored.
Closing reviews
A nominated page should remain on deletion review for at least seven days, unless the nomination was a proposed deletion. After seven days, an administrator will determine whether a consensus exists. If that consensus is to undelete, the admin should follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Administrator instructions. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at the appropriate forum. If the consensus was that the deletion was endorsed, the discussion should be closed with the consensus documented.
If the administrator closes the deletion review as no consensus, the outcome should generally be the same as if the decision was endorsed. However:
- If the decision under appeal was a speedy deletion, the page(s) in question should be restored, as it indicates the deletion was not uncontroversial. The closer, or any editor, may then proceed to nominate the page at the appropriate deletion discussion forum, if they so choose.
- If the decision under appeal was an XfD close, the closer may, at their discretion, relist the page(s) at the relevant XfD.
Ideally all closes should be made by an administrator to ensure that what is effectively the final appeal is applied consistently and fairly but in cases where the outcome is patently obvious or where a discussion has not been closed in good time it is permissible for a non-admin (ideally a DRV regular) to close discussions. Non-consensus closes should be avoided by non-admins unless they are absolutely unavoidable and the closer is sufficiently experienced at DRV to make that call. (Hint: if you are not sure that you have enough DRV experience then you don't.)
Speedy closes
- Objections to a proposed deletion can be processed immediately as though they were a request at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion
- Where the closer of a deletion discussion realizes their close was wrong, and nobody has endorsed, the closer may speedily close as overturn. They should fully reverse their close, restoring any deleted pages if appropriate.
- Where the nominator of a DRV wishes to withdraw their nomination, and nobody else has recommended any outcome other than endorse, the nominator may speedily close as "endorse" (or ask someone else to do so on their behalf).
- Certain discussions may be closed without result if there is no prospect of success (e.g. disruptive nominations, if the nominator is repeatedly nominating the same page, or the page is listed at WP:DEEPER). These will usually be marked as "administrative close".
16 April 2024
13 April 2024
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| The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
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This beach has been established as one of the oldest and largest in America per the Philadelphia Inquirer. (https://www.inquirer.com/philly/living/travel/shoreguide/20150711_Here_to_save_the_day.html) 73.150.197.202 (talk) 19:06, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
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| The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
12 April 2024
Century Financial LLC
Page was speedily deleted. This a a new articles, new content, new sources. Pls could you restore Francisjk2020 (talk) 08:33, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse deletion as a page previously deleted via an AfD. I cannot view the original or recreated article, or if as the proposer asserts, it had "new content, new sources". I trust that JBW would have done reasonable due diligence on comparing with the AfD version before proceeding with the CSD. It seems the title of the page was changed too, maybe to try and get it accepted through the backdoor, but I note from the history of the AfD article that it has already been recreated several times without merit. Bungle (talk • contribs) 08:43, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- If it's a new article with new content, then use the AFC process to have it evaluated on its own merits. Sneaking around create protection ("salting") is not behavior consistent with good faith. While it may be a mistake from ignorance, anyone who is going to write a policy-compliant article on a corporation should know better. Jclemens (talk) 08:55, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- I deleted the article. Unfortunately at present I am short of time, but in a few hours I may possibly come back and say a few more things. For the present, though, I'll say this. This article has been created numerous times and deleted. It has been the subject of at least two deletion discussions, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Century Financial Consultancy and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Century Financial, each of which produced a "delete" outcome. All of the numerous creations of the article have been substantially similar, and the concerns raised in the two deletion discussions substantially apply to all of them. There are different views among editors as to how near to identical a new version of a page has to be to a deleted version to qualify for a G4 deletion, but usually if a deletion of mine is questioned, I give a generous interpretation, and undelete the article if I think there is any reasonable case for saying it's different, with the possibility of another AfD if appropriate. However, there has to be a limit to this. G4 is intended to prevent wasting editors' time by repeating at a new AfD the same arguments as have already been discussed. That purpose is not achieved if an editor repeatedly creates substantially similar articles, but makes some changes each time so they can say "It's a different article, so it can't be deleted without everybody spending more time discussing it again, and going through the same arguments yet again." This is unambiguously one of a string of attempts, at least some of them by one person, to establish an article which has repeatedly been discussed and found to be unsuitable. There has to be a time to say "enough is enough; we are not going to keep discussing essentially the same article endlessly." The history of the article strongly suggests paid editing; if so the owners of the business would be well advised to put their money into advertising it on some other platform. JBW (talk) 10:33, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Do not allow recreation and
salt[blacklist 09:53, 15 April 2024 (UTC)] also this name. This is salted at two other names after two AfDs and tendentious recreations. Require submission of a draft suitable for a review at DRV for recreation. There is no need to endorse or overturn the G4 deletion, that's not the important aspect here.—Alalch E. 10:42, 12 April 2024 (UTC) - This is the third title this user has created this content at, after the previous ones were deleted and salted. It wasn't a "new article with new content"; the two-bullet-point Timeline section was removed, two sentences were added, and a handful of new references with exactly the same problems as the previous ones were piled on to anodyne statements already cited to four or five press releases. We shouldn't be looking at restoring this for yet another one-sided afd; we should be looking at blacklisting the title and blocking the author. —Cryptic 10:55, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse and keep salted, along with any other title-gaming variants. The main difference between this version and the one deleted in the last AfD is that this one includes,
It was voted as one of the best places to work in the GCC
, while the older one had,It was voted as one of the best workplaces for women to work in the GCC
. The cited source clearly says "for women". I think it is warranted to run a CU on the editors involved; the whole thing smells of WP:PAID. Owen× ☎ 12:48, 12 April 2024 (UTC) - I have just discovered that the same editor previously took this to Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2023 December 19, where deletion was endorsed. I think this reinforces still further the view that enough is enough, and Francisjk2020 needs to accept that consensus is against them, and drop their persistent and disruptive attempts to get round that consensus. JBW (talk) 12:56, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think you're being unrealistic here. Francisjk2020 likely gets paid to keep the page in place, and will not stop until they and their socks get banned. Our best course of action is to waste as little time as possible on these disruptions. Owen× ☎ 14:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse and close as disruption. Since it's clear SALT doesn't work, time to look at a block since Francis doesn't respect that their opinion doesn't overrule consensus. Star Mississippi 13:14, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse and salt clearly tendentious editing. SportingFlyer T·C 06:31, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse - This is an obvious case of the gaming of names. If the appellant really thinks that the subject satisfies corporate notability, they are more likely to get an article approved sometime by submitting a draft than by trying to change the title. The company is more likely to get the Internet coverage it wants by paying to improve its own web site, which is under its control, than by clumsy efforts to manipulate Wikipedia. Consider Title Blacklist. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:29, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse but do not salt or place it in the title blacklist. There is no way for this to have its own article. The reason I am opposing salting or blacklisting is because it is really harmful. Toadette (Let's talk together!) 14:16, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- Harmful to whom? How? I don't think a title blacklisting is necessary because someone should just block Francisjk2020 as WP:NOTHERE instead, but it wouldn't cause any harm. * Pppery * it has begun... 04:32, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- The DRV applicant failed to notify me (as the closer of the XfD discussion), as required by step 2 of the DRV instructions. Notwithstanding this, for me this is a pretty clear endorse deletion and salting as closer - and the salting should absolutely be maintained. I cannot understand the comment immediately above me which suggests salting is "really harmful", with no elucidation as to how said harm is caused. Daniel (talk) 07:19, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- I strongly oppose salting. This page has been re-created a very large number of times, under different titles. My experience over the years is that in this situation salting at the best achieves nothing, and at the worst can be very counterproductive. One or more people have put in a large amount of work over a long period in working to get the article established. (Francisjk2020 is just the latest in a string of accounts.) If they still wish to persist in trying to establish the article, they won't be stopped by salting; in the past their response to salting has been to switch to new titles, and there's nothing to stop them doing the same again. Therefore salting will stand zero chance of stopping re-creation. On the other hand, salting will make it certain, instead of just likely, that the next re-creation will be under a new title, and we can watch existing titles, but we can't watch every conceivable new title that they could possibly come up with. Therefore salting stands a significant chance of increasing the likelihood of a new copy of the article getting under the radar. This is not just a theoretical possibilities: I have seen it happen many times. A case in point came to my attention just a few days ago. An article had been repeatedly created and then salted in 2013, and not very long after it was recreated under a new name. It remained undetected until, as I say, just a few days ago. There are situations where salting can help, but this is absolutely not one of them. Title blacklisting stands a much better chance ofcworking, as it can deal with patterns of titles, rather than just exact titles that we specify, but I am still not sure about its usefulness in the present case, as it is still possible for a sufficiently determined spammer (which is what we are dealing with) to find titles that aren't blocked.
- Pinging editors have have made any mention above of salting: Jclemens, Alalch E., OwenX, Star Mississippi, SportingFlyer, ToadetteEdit, Daniel. JBW (talk) 09:47, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, yes, I said "salt" more abstractly in the sense of technically prevent recreation. I agree that title blacklisting is the correct action.—Alalch E. 09:52, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- I would be fine with a title blacklist instead of salting, although I don't agree that just because something isn't likely to effectively deter a bad faith editor means we shouldn't do it. Sometimes, just knowing that create protection was dodged, as it was in this case, gives information about motivation and good-faith on its own. Jclemens (talk) 11:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with you that SALT isn't working anyway, which is why I suggested a block. I'd be fine too with title blacklist as well @JBW. @ToadetteEdit why do you find either of those harmful? Star Mississippi 12:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- I still endorse any decision that prevents an editor from creating an article at that title. SportingFlyer T·C 16:17, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse per Robert McClenon. Coastie43 (talk) 10:43, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Amy Eden
Discussed with closing admin here. Only 1 person !voted redirect. The consensus seems to be delete. LibStar (talk) 01:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse as a viable ATD. No reason made not to. Star Mississippi 02:12, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse per the above, but more importantly: Delete !voters had plenty of time to argue against a redirection; no one did. Redirection to a relevant, notable parent topic is almost always a great ATD for a distinct topic that fails inclusion solely on notability grounds. Jclemens (talk) 03:20, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Weak endorse Weak only because the consensus was clearly delete, I probably would have closed it as a delete, and I want to call attention to that. However a viable ATD is always welcome and I have no problem with that outcome. SportingFlyer T·C 03:44, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I have a confession to make: Unless the consensus is unanimous to delete, I like to look for ATD. It's because there still resides in me a small, tiny hope that maybe some day, we can find a use for content that has been written with good intentions. And, even if the article is crap, I think redirects are useful for readers looking for subjects through search. Also, in the over three years I've been putting in time closing AFDs, I've found very few editors who object to redirects. But there are some who seemingly want a subject and its page title obliterated from the project. I don't agree but editors have different preferences. LibStar seems to be the latter. There was one editor who suggested a redirect, though it was not a bolded comment, and I took that suggestion. If no editor had mentioned a redirect, I never would have closed this discussion as a redirect because that would be me, the closer, introducing a option that had not been suggested by the participants. But it was suggested by an editor. When LibStar came to my talk page upset with the closure, I offered what I thought was a compromise, I would delete the article and then create a redirect from that article page title to the target article. But that was not an acceptable option either. So, here we are. Thanks for hearing me out. Liz Read! Talk! 06:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not upset at all. In fact, if this deletion review ends up endorsing the closure, I will accept that. Wikipedia is not the end all be all of life. LibStar (talk) 06:58, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- It seems to me that the offer to delete and redirect would have saved a lot of time and angst. That is a delete closure. Anyone can create a new redirect after a delete closure, and an objection to that redirect would need to be taken to RfD. But why? The page history would not be visible and this person was a mayor so it is a reasonable search term. Perhaps the nom. can withdraw this and return to that offer. Or perhaps that ship has sailed. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:31, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- On what basis would a deletion of an article with valid a redirect target, whose only issue is lack of notability, be a policy-preferred outcome? What is the benefit to the encyclopedia or its readers if only admins can see the deleted content? Jclemens (talk) 08:52, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- You might want to see Bungle's reply below. I'd have voted redirect if I had seen this, but I didn't. But after the keep !voter suggested a redirect as an ATD, the AfD gained 4 additional deletes, so we can't say the redirect suggestion was not considered. The consensus was clearly delete here. And DRV, as we are often told, is not about relitigating the AfD but assessing whether the close correctly assessed the consensus. However participants in an AfD may not always fully appreciate the options, and sometimes Liz gives very helpful guidance in a relist comment. She might have written something like "would delete voters consider the above redirect suggestion" or similar in her relist comment. Liz is unusual amongst relisting closers in doing this, and I find it to be a very good and helpful practice. That she didn't do it here is certainly not blameworthy, as this is very much an additional aid/service that she sometimes employs on a grace and favour basis. But had that been in the relist comment, we might have seen some re-evaluation. Or not! It can be hard to get !voters to look again. But at least additional !voters would have had that steer that the option is available. I also note the relist was not then left for a full week, and the only additional !vote was another delete. So... if the closer's job is to assess consensus, then it is hard to assess this one as anything other than delete. Liz offered to amend her close to delete, followed by creation of a redirect - which any editor, including Liz, is perfectly entitled to do. It was a fair offer, and in the big plan of things, having this text in visible rather than hidden page history is neither here nor there. So redirect is a perfectly good outcome in my opinion, and much time and angst could have been saved by working with Liz on this. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:47, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- On what basis would a deletion of an article with valid a redirect target, whose only issue is lack of notability, be a policy-preferred outcome? What is the benefit to the encyclopedia or its readers if only admins can see the deleted content? Jclemens (talk) 08:52, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- It seems to me that the offer to delete and redirect would have saved a lot of time and angst. That is a delete closure. Anyone can create a new redirect after a delete closure, and an objection to that redirect would need to be taken to RfD. But why? The page history would not be visible and this person was a mayor so it is a reasonable search term. Perhaps the nom. can withdraw this and return to that offer. Or perhaps that ship has sailed. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:31, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not upset at all. In fact, if this deletion review ends up endorsing the closure, I will accept that. Wikipedia is not the end all be all of life. LibStar (talk) 06:58, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Weak endorse for broadly the same reasons as SportingFlyer. A redirect is a de-facto delete, except that it can be easily reverted, although by the same token a deleted page can be recreated. That said, even if this seems an appropriate ATD, it feels like a supervote as there was, for me, quite an overwhelming majority advocating a straight "delete" that this should have been the default outcome. A redirect, or anything else, could have been done separate to the AfD. Seeing as this page could have been uncontroversially redirected after a deletion, then the close is not in itself inappropriate, but in this instance i'd have usually expected the outcome as "delete". Bungle (talk • contribs) 08:34, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- And how would having the history of this article inaccessible to non-admins improve the encyclopedia vs. it being preserved under the redirect? Jclemens (talk) 08:47, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Jclemens: my point was around the determining of consensus, not so much the aesthetics of a clean redirect. This discussion is just to determine if the reached outcome is correct and appropriate, and my view is, while strictly maybe not correct per consensus, is none the less probably appropriate. Just be mindful not to overly hound participants though, please, particularly as so far everyone has endorsed the decision in some form. Bungle (talk • contribs) 09:00, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- That's fair advice; my intent in questioning isn't to hound, so much as highlight the "Why?" behind the policies. I've been pursuing a curationist approach to the inclusionist/deletionist wars for quite some time, and if I accomplish nothing else in my Wikipedia career, deemphasizing binary delete/keep, win/lose thinking would be a satisfactory accomplishment. Having said that, I would dispute that identifying an ATD is against consensus in this or similar cases, in that it honors the finding that the individual is insufficiently notable for her own article, removes the content from mainspace, and allows all the nonproblematic (no promo, BLP, etc. issues) to remain in article history. It's especially important for admins to have the freedom to implement relatively obvious ATDs like this despite the nose counting, because that avoids pointless posturing like "keep or redirect" !votes, when everyone can see that at the time of such a !vote there aren't sufficient sources identified. Honesty and candor should result in optimum outcomes in a well-run consensus determination process, and I think Liz does it very well. Jclemens (talk) 00:18, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Jclemens: my point was around the determining of consensus, not so much the aesthetics of a clean redirect. This discussion is just to determine if the reached outcome is correct and appropriate, and my view is, while strictly maybe not correct per consensus, is none the less probably appropriate. Just be mindful not to overly hound participants though, please, particularly as so far everyone has endorsed the decision in some form. Bungle (talk • contribs) 09:00, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- And how would having the history of this article inaccessible to non-admins improve the encyclopedia vs. it being preserved under the redirect? Jclemens (talk) 08:47, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. This is the outcome suggested under policy. It was decided against a standalone article for the reason that the topic isn't notable. That does not by itself indicate that it is important to make the page history inaccessible. If the consensus to delete had formed around other reasons, such as BLP problems, it would not have been appropriate to redirect and leave the history accessible. But there is no such problem here.—Alalch E. 10:25, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Why should anyone bother commenting at afd if we're just going to endorse its treatment as a closer's suggestion box? —Cryptic 10:59, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: I have a great deal of respect for Liz, whom I regard as one of our best administrators. However, I find it alarming to see an administrator saying "Unless the consensus is unanimous to delete, I like to look for ATD. It's because there still resides in me a small, tiny hope that ..." A closing administrator absolutely should not allow their personal opinions or "hopes" to influence how they close a discussion, at all. Unlike Liz, I don't regularly close deletion discussions, but on the infrequent occasions when I do so, I quite often close them in ways which are strongly opposed to my own preferences. I do not wish to comment on the closure of the particular discussion being considered here, but I feel very strongly about the principle in general. JBW (talk) 11:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse and rescind offer to redirect over delete. The AfD determined that the subject did not meet our threshold of notability. It did not determine that the content violated policy. The appellant has no basis to demand deletion under the redirect, and has no locus standi to even request the removal of a redirect without an RfD. The entire appeal comes across as based on spite, rather than on a genuine interest in improving the project. I assumed good faith until I saw the appellant's refusal to accept the closing admin's compromise. This appellant will not be satisfied with any outcome different from their nomination, regardless of policy or benefit to WP. Owen× ☎ 12:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. A vote to delete as not notable and a vote to redirect are one in the same, the only difference being that the latter specifies a redirect target. None of the delete votes stated any opposition to redirect, and the AFD nominator also opined that redirect was a viable option after the redirect vote came in. Redirect is a reasonable close, and in this case the correct close (had delete been the outcome and someone challenged that at DRV, I would have voted to overturn to redirect with history restored). Frank Anchor 14:21, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse, per User:Alalch E.. Fundamentally, Liz was following the policy spelled out at WP:ATD, but perhaps more importantly was following a long-standing consensus that if an ATD has been suggested and not objected to then it is preferable to use that ATD rather than to delete history. (Among other minor benefits, it saves a future administrator the effort of doing a WP:REFUND.) Suriname0 (talk) 20:00, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. When in doubt, don't delete. A consensus that a topic is not notable does not make redirection or history preservation inappropriate. losers should always consider ATD's that have been suggested in a discussion and implement them if they are appropriate. Eluchil404 (talk) 20:25, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse - The consensus was Delete, and redirects are cheap, and the redirect is a valid one, so deleting the redirect would be silly. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
8 April 2024
Low Pavement, Chesterfield (closed)
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| The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
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I do not believe there was a consensus to keep. While there was an initial flurry of keep !votes, I do not believe they adequately addressed the arguments that were made in the discussion and none of the keep votes provided SIGCOV in reliable sources. Additionally, there was a keep that turned into a comment and a merge !vote toward the end of the seven-day period. I believe that this discussion should be relisted. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:22, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
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| The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
Sports broadcasting contracts in Israel (closed)
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Hello, I write to request restoration of the page (an overturn), or at least relisting, because the process used, when looked at in conjunction with a broader AfD discussion occurring at the same time was confusing and misleading. When I first saw the deletion discussion for [Sports Broadcasting Contracts in Israel], there was a note from the initiator of the deletion request that, having been advised by others that it was better, they wanted to withdraw the Israel Sports Broadcasting Contracts page deletion request to consolidate it with the deletion request for dozens of other sports broadcasting pages at [Sports Broadcasting Contracts in Serbia]. This is consistent with the with the Articles for Deletion guideline that "If a number of similar articles are to be nominated, it is best to make this a group nomination so that they can be considered collectively." And so, I put my keep comment in the Serbia discussion, and I limited my comment to generic points relevant to the broader category of sports broadcasting contracts. Some users agreed with my comment, and at least one did not. In any case, following the broader deletion discussion, which resulted in a procedural keep, I came back to the Israel sports broadcasting page, only to learn that it had been deleted the same day as the broader procedural keep. I understand the closer's point that a Procedural Keep on the overall category and a Close on the specific article are not inherently inconsistent. However, those decisions still should not be made at the same time. An implicit corrilary to the AfD guideline quoted above is that the individual similar article nominatations should be stopped, or at least paused, while the group nomination is handled. Indeed, the decision to maintain dozens of similar sports broadcasting contract pages is relevant to the evaluation of each individual page. There wasn't time, however, to take the broader decision into account on the Israel indivdual country page AfD. If dozens of other similar country-based broadcasting contract pages are viewed by many Wikipedians as notable, it is not clear what makes the Israel broadcasting contract page not worthy of Wikipedia. I do not want this deletion decision becoming another entry in the recent research report on [Bias Against Israel on Wikipedia]. Perhaps most simply, for a number of days, including the day when I came across the [Sports Broadcasting Contracts in Israel] page, the AfD withdrawl request led users like me to think it best to go elsewhere (to the broader discussion under the [Serbia page]) with comments, and also not make comments specific to the Israel page. For the 7-day minimum for AfD discussions rule to have meaning, there should be none of those 7 days when it would appear to the average reader that the AfD discussion will in fact occur elsewhere. In any case, having overlapping deletion discussions (one to a broad category of changes, and another for a specific page) is very confusing and is not a process designed to achieve a fair outcome. To summarize, the page should be restored (an overturn) and given time to be improved, or at least this is an appropriate time to use the relist procedures. Thank you for your consideration. Coining (talk) 20:27, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
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6 April 2024
List of cult films (closed)
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In this closure, the closer said "[A keep] argument was not successfully rebutted by the Delete views." Four of the keep votes came in during the final day of the AFD – following a canvass of previous keep voters – that I didn't see and I don't think there was enough time to allow for responses. With a final !vote of 6–5, I do not believe there was a consensus to keep already, and I request that it be relisted for further discussion. I also have concern about the closer's comparison "similar to that of List of films considered the worst" – that page is a contextual prose article in that sense more similar to the corresponding main article here, cult film, rather than 27 alphabetical pages of thousands of simple bullet points, so this feels like a supervote to me. Reywas92Talk 00:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
Notes
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Kansas City shooting (closed)
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Based on an analysis of the votes, it’s in between disambiguation and no consensus. The discussion was tainted by WP:BLUDGEON behaviour by Thruddyulf as well. Some of the votes are based on the length of time between nominations, which for a current event must be discounted. Discounting those votes, the consensus is clear that disambiguation is the correct shooting. Keep voters completely contradicted WP:RECENTISM, WP:10YT, etc. And regarding the Google searches - when I looked up Kansas City shooting, this was the first result, then this, then this and only my 4th article is about it. Granted, those shootings don’t have articles, but the media hype about this is dying down and it’s blatantly obvious that in a few months, this will be just as talked about as those other shootings that have articles. Finally, the closure gave no justification for their closure, so they didn’t even explain it. At least if they explained it, there’s logic that this controversial decision is based off of.24.89.159.222 (talk) 23:10, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
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Sindhuja Rajaraman
The rationale to delete carried more weight. The subject article on its reading appears non-notable. Coverage is not substantial but sensationalism/churnalism. Marked for updation since 2015. Thanks, Please feel free to ping/mention -- User4edits (T) 06:04, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn I don't believe keep was a reasonable close - those arguing for keep were not doing so very strongly, and those arguing against WP:BLP1E didn't really make strong arguments either (either confusing 1E and SUSTAINED, or saying "age is not an event" though the event is clearly becoming a young CEO). I think possible results of this discussion were no consensus and delete, and I would have closed as delete, but any result that's not keep is fine by me. SportingFlyer T·C 19:29, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn to No Consensus. The closer's reasoning would be good reasoning for a Keep !vote, but is a supervote as a close. Although a close is not a vote count, the vote count should be given some weight, and there were four good-faith Delete statements including the nominator but excluding the blocked editor, and three good-faith Keep statements. The Delete arguments should not have been discounted. After two previous relists, the close should be changed to No Consensus, and a new nomination can be made in two months. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:39, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse as the closing admin. This was my assessment of the views expressed in that AfD:
- On the Delete side:
- User4edits, as nom, claiming:
WP:1E - successfully countered by the Keeps- WP:NOTWEBHOST - irrelevant
- ToadetteEdit claiming:
- BLP1E - successfully countered
- Esprit15d, claiming:
- "per nom"
coverage not significant- sources in foreign-language media re: animation work - irrelevant
- Bhivuti45 - user blocked
- RangersRus claiming:
- no international coverage - not a P&G argument
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there are many other young CEOs who are and can be considered notable
- WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST
- On the Delete side:
- So while at first blush, the Delete participants have a small numerical advantage, once you sift the arguments down to P&G, other than the one claim by Esprit15d which was reasonably questioned by others, all guideline-based arguments fall on the Keep side. I believe that closing this as Delete would have given weight to IDONTLIKEIT-type arguments in favour of actual policy. I, personally, have no opinion about the article itself, so the accusation of a supervote is without basis. Owen× ☎ 21:02, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the ping, it still appears to be a marginal !keep vote based on a re-review, but I'm not fussed either way, however we decide for it to go. Oaktree b (talk) 21:09, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- I absolutely disagree the !keeps countered the WP:BLP1E argument, hence my overturn. SportingFlyer T·C 22:02, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- The question, as I read the AfD, is not whether this is a person famous for one event or not. She clearly is only famous for that one event. The question is whether the event, and the person's role in it, meet all three WP:BLP1E criteria to qualify for deletion. I believe the Keep !voters successfully argued that it does not meet C#3, seeing as the event received significant national coverage in independent RS for eight years, and the person's role in it was pivotal. For WP:BLP1E, all three criteria need to be met to qualify for deletion. Owen× ☎ 22:51, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- There were three !keep votes. The first vote doesn't understand why this is an "event." The second only says that there are two reliable sources. The third is a weak keep, saying they don't believe age isn't a BLP1E factor because coverage was sustained, which isn't part of BLP1E at all. Nobody in the discussion talks about C#3 either explicitly or implicitly. The way you're explaining your conclusion is starting to sound like a supervote. SportingFlyer T·C 23:02, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- The question, as I read the AfD, is not whether this is a person famous for one event or not. She clearly is only famous for that one event. The question is whether the event, and the person's role in it, meet all three WP:BLP1E criteria to qualify for deletion. I believe the Keep !voters successfully argued that it does not meet C#3, seeing as the event received significant national coverage in independent RS for eight years, and the person's role in it was pivotal. For WP:BLP1E, all three criteria need to be met to qualify for deletion. Owen× ☎ 22:51, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- "No international coverage" was taken out of context, mea culpa for poor choice of words. I intend to say that the young lady's achievement is not many and the company that she is CEO of is not notable. Her achievement is that she was the youngest CEO that got same repeated coverage in sources early on and that is all. She has no significant other achievement if you take another young CEO Advait Thakur, at the age of 15 who continued to earn more notable achievement till today like created an app for Google Assistant called "Autism Awareness" and awarded The Startup India's "Main 10 Young Entrepreneurs In India 2018" and also included in "India's Hottest Young Entrepreneurs Of 2018, "Most Influential Youth Marketing Professional of 2CMO Asia CMO Asia, Zoom, and the World Federation of Marketing Professionals' Global Youth Marketing Forum. Sindhuja's achievement is not substantial. RangersRus (talk) 10:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse Being a CEO is not 1E per WP:WI1E, while becoming one might be. No consensus would have been reasonable closure as well, but overturning keep to no consensus is not worth our time. The fact that so much of Indian media is paid placement muddies the water a bit, but this was picked up internationally. Jclemens (talk) 23:09, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse or a weak overturn to no consensus. It's clear that the sources are good here, but the concern is with WP:BLP1E. But this fails #3 and only weekly hits #2, because the coverage spans 8 years. TLAtlak 07:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn (relist for more source discussion). The close reads Supervotery, OwenX stating his opinion/conclusion rather than quoting from the discussion. The discussion reads as just getting starting, except that it is tainted by being the football of a PAID turf war (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#What's_going_on_here?). The source analysis above belongs at AfD. The blocked editor's "churnalism" allegation needs examination by other users. Actually, it is probably best to call it "no consensus" or "tainted" and to allow a fresh nomination. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn to no consensus to allow immediate renomination. Defining an event is done broadly in the context of BLP1E. Practically anything that someone in a deletion discussion labels an event could, ostensibly, be treated as an event for the purposes of that discussion. The discussion around construing the thing as "Being a CEO", i.e., as (arguably) not an event, or "becoming a CEO", i.e., as (arguably) an event, needed to have been more resolved for the closer to say that the BLP1E argument was "successfully countered" on the basis of how the claimed event was not an event. It is not clear if (and which) editors had "being" or "becoming" in mind, and it comes down to semantics to an extent. Overall, editors distinctly did not agree about the nature of the thing as an event or not-an-event. Discounting BLP1E-based !votes on the basis of how the "event" thesis was wrong had the character of a supevote. When what was discounted is counted in, it turns out that the discussion is unresolved. There were two relists and instead of overturning and relisting, it would be better to start with a fresh nomination. One that is laid out better.—Alalch E. 15:34, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure where you saw any of that in my closing rationale. I did not discard any !vote based on the claim that it is or isn't an event. However, as I'm tla and I explained above, while the article falls under the jurisdiction of BLP1E, it does not meet the deletion criteria listed in that policy. As such, deletion "per BLP1E" is a discarded argument, no matter how many participants voiced it. We do not delete biographies of living people based on a single event if that event is significant, well documented, and the person's role in it is substantial, as determined by RS. Owen× ☎ 16:56, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'm tla disagreed with your interpretation of BLP1E just above and is now blocked indefinitely. With all due respect, with each of your responses here, your decision sounds more and more supervotey. SportingFlyer T·C 17:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'll try to reread everything and see if I can modify the above comment. It does seem to me now like I got partially sidetracked while coming up with it. But my impression is that recommendation should still be to overturn. —Alalch E. 03:36, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure where you saw any of that in my closing rationale. I did not discard any !vote based on the claim that it is or isn't an event. However, as I'm tla and I explained above, while the article falls under the jurisdiction of BLP1E, it does not meet the deletion criteria listed in that policy. As such, deletion "per BLP1E" is a discarded argument, no matter how many participants voiced it. We do not delete biographies of living people based on a single event if that event is significant, well documented, and the person's role in it is substantial, as determined by RS. Owen× ☎ 16:56, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn to No Consensus. I am not sure that the closer should just waive off BLP1E as a discarded argument. --Enos733 (talk) 02:35, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Weak overturn to NC Keep was a reasonable interpretation of this discussion but NC is a bit better. I agree with others here that the BLP1E concerns were not given quite enough weight. However there clearly was not consensus to delete and a third relist would not change that. I would advise the nominator here to take the advice at WP:RENOM if they wish to send back to AFD. Frank Anchor 11:05, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse - The close was well reasoned both at the time of closing and above. The other possible read of the discussion is as no consensus in which case we would also keep the article so I don't see the point in continuing the discussion here. ~Kvng (talk) 01:09, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn and delete in line with the consensus of the debate. I am also fine (as a second preference) with relisting. Stifle (talk) 07:36, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn and relist for consideration of sourcing - while I think the issue of the WP:BLP1E is addressed, for me there is no consensus on the reliability of the sourcing, two deletes take issue (not considering the "international" angle) and the single (weak) keep !vote that addresses the issue acknowledges the sourcing is borderline. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 22:55, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- Relist. No consensus would have also been an appropriate closure. Discussion seems rather confused, and participants do not clearly indicate the are aware of the distinction between BIO1E and BLP1E. The fact that two of the participants have since been indefinitely blocked (1 keep, CU-blocked, 1 delete, for UPE) tilts me over towards a relist or immeidate renomination. Alpha3031 (t • c) 09:16, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
4 April 2024
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3 April 2024
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Before I begin, I wanted to make two points:
First I'll address the discussions that occurred prior to this AfD. For a list of them, please see the top of my initial statement in the AfD. I believe most of the people who are actually interested in these lists and edit them often had never heard of or visited the Village Pump (where the RfC took place) or Articles for Deletion. I was the same way for many years. It's true that WT:AIRLINES was notified about the RfC and most of the AfDs, but it appears that most interested editors do not check that page regularly. Also, the AfDs up to this point generally addressed the lists of minor airlines like Syrian Air and Air Polonia, which few people probably were monitoring and contributing to. This AfD, however, covered several major airlines like British Airways and Emirates. 43 people !voted in it – compared to 24 in the RfC and 23 in the most-attended AfD since 2023 – and some people said they had contributed to the lists. Therefore, it seems like it was the first of the 28 AfDs since 2023 to attract a healthy amount of participation from interested parties, which is what we desire. That being said, I don't think we should ignore all of those past discussions. The RfC creator and AfD nominators who notified WT:AIRLINES did what they were supposed to, and I don't know what else they could've done to attract more attention to the respective discussions. (As to whether an RfC can be cited to delete articles, that was addressed by the subsequent AN discussion.) So if contributors to the AfD thought the past discussions were relevant, I believe we should respect that opinion, and if they thought they were irrelevant (see the next paragraph), I think we should respect that as well. Now I'll analyze the arguments in this AfD. In my opinion, most people who !voted Delete provided sound policy-based rationales. Specifically, parts of WP:NOT were cited: NOTINDISCRIMINATE, NOTCATALOG, NOTNEWS, and NOTTRAVEL. Most also cited the RfC/prior AfDs, which as I said I don't think we should ignore. On the other hand, most editors who !voted Keep/Merge made relatively weak arguments: USEFUL, EFFORT, HARMLESS, and that the lists are well-referenced (rebutted by WP:VNOT). Several people added that the RfC was six years ago and had limited participation, and that consensus can change. These are valid points; however, the arguments that these editors made for keeping the lists were still weak. These were the main counterarguments made by Keep/Merge !voters that I identified:
Ultimately, I believe that on the basis of the arguments in this AfD, there was a consensus to Delete all. Sunnya343 (talk) 18:52, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
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The main reason for deletion is that the guy is not on IMDb, but the person is on IMDb https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1427947/ and other places https://www.rottentomatoes.com/celebrity/david_windsor - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Is_Us - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_Dead_Yet_(TV_series) - https://www.emmys.com/bios/david-windsor - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=David_Windsor&redirect=no - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/David_Windsor — Preceding unsigned comment added by Listedwhenyou (talk • contribs)
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There is a page about Mortal Online which released on June 9, 2010. A sequel called Mortal Online 2 was released on 25 January 2022. However, the page was deleted by Stifle at 09:29, 3 April 2024. He gave the reason "No credible indication of importance", but the Mortal Online MMOs are significant. Mortal Online 2 is available on Steam and Epic Games Store. It's actively played by thousands of people. It is continuously being developed. Major roadmap milestones were achieved and are planned. Stifle deleted the page without a discussion. The developer StarVault was awarded a $1 million Epic MegaGrant which is only given to MMOs that are important enough. Mortal Online 2 is also one of the first MMOs to use Unreal Engine 5. -Artanisen (talk) 12:39, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
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