Talk:Torture

Sources to be used

Feel free to add reliable sources if they aren't used in the article or mentioned below Lokaneeta, Jinee (2011). Transnational Torture: Law, Violence, and State Power in the United States and India. NYU Press. ISBN 978-0-8147-5280-7. Haritos-Fatouros, Mika (2003). The Psychological Origins of Institutionalized Torture. Psychology Press. ISBN 978-0-415-28276-5. Levinson, Sanford, ed. (2006). Torture: A Collection. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-530646-0. Parry, John T. (2011). Understanding Torture: Law, Violence, and Political Identity. University of Michigan Press. ISBN 978-0-472-02178-9. Wisnewski, J. Jeremy; Emerick, R. D. (2009). The Ethics of Torture. Bloomsbury Publishing. ISBN 978-1-4411-9798-6. Conrad, Courtenay Ryals; Moore, Will H. (2010). "What Stops the Torture?". American Journal of Political Science. 54 (2): 459–476. doi:10.1111/j.1540-5907.2010.00441.x. Wisnewski, J. Jeremy (2019). "Human Rights: Torture". International Human Rights and Counter-Terrorism. Springer. pp. 245–258. ISBN 978-981-10-4181-5. Nowak, Manfred (2018). Torture: An Expert's Confrontation with an Everyday Evil. University of Pennsylvania Press. ISBN 978-0-8122-4991-0.

Photo "doesn't really fit here"

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Torture&diff=prev&oldid=1168797552

Buidhe How does this image "not fit" here? It seems okay to me. The text of the section remains perfectly readable with it included here. I'm also not sure how one image accounts for a worldwide imbalance. There's not even anything in it explicitly tied to any particular country. There's opposition to Guantanamo Bay detention camp globally. Helper201 (talk) 03:11, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Images relating to torture by the United States are already overrepresented in the article. In terms of the layout, it depends on your settings but adding this image overflows the section to which it is added, and displaces images in the next section (which barely fit without the new image), spilling over to the last section of the article where the "Torture Never Again" monument pushes into the references and disrupts how they are displayed. (t · c) buidhe 03:42, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Agree that images and reference to American torture are overrepresented. Anti-American bias is likely.

ly 24.209.166.47 (talk) 02:41, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Please define “Western countries”

“In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, Western countries abolished the official use of torture in the judicial system”….

A definition of “Western countries,” or a different regional term, would be helpful here. A partial list might also be more informative than the current wording. — ℜob C. alias ALAROB 22:40, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Victim of Abu Ghraib and his identity

"Ali Shallal al-Qaisi being tortured by United States forces at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq."

the reason I change from mr.al-Qaisi to mr.Abdou Hussain Saad Faleh (which I'll called him mr.Faleh from now on) it's start from Torture and Abuse in Abu Ghraib Prison Wiki page itself. it display name of mr.Faleh, and so that I start investigated

so I first search about mr.al-Qaisi first I found out that his wiki article didn't have such an infamous picture. which is odd by just how this picture is like the first thing people think of when talk about abusive in Abu Ghraib. so when I go to talk page. it's tell me that Wikipedian have to remove because the description didn't match with mr.al-Qaisi.

"The article uses the following image to imply that the pictured prisoner is Ali Shallal al-Qaisi, but the description on the image's own page identifies the prisoner as Abdou Hussain Saad Faleh. Unless the prisoner has two names, this is a contradiction that needs to be rectified." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ali_Shallal_al-Qaisi#The_image_may_be_depicting_Abdou_Hussain_Saad_Faleh

as same as talk on Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse#The_image_may_be_depicting_Abdou_Hussain_Saad_Faleh

description of this image from each article that use this photo :

Hooding article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooding#United_States). "Hooded prisoner Abdou Hussain Saad Faleh (originally misidentified as Ali Shallal al-Qaisi) at Abu Ghraib."

Abu Ghraib article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prison#2003%E2%80%932006) "Picture of Abdou Hussain Saad Faleh, one of the prisoners subjected to torture and abuse by U.S. guards at Abu Ghraib"

Charles Graner article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Graner#Abu_Ghraib) "The picture of Abdou Hussain Saad Faleh which prompted the investigation"

Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse) "This image of a prisoner (Abdou Hussain Saad Faleh) being tortured has become internationally infamous, eventually making it onto the cover of The Economist (see "Media coverage" below)"

only two that different

Seymour Hersh article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh#Iraq_and_Abu_Ghraib) "The infamous photo of a hooded Iraqi prisoner from Hersh's first article on the abuse, "Torture at Abu Ghraib" "

this one is not depicting any name.

and

Criticism of the war on terror article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_war_on_terror#Domestic_civil_liberties) "Picture of Satar Jabar, one of the prisoners subjected to torture at Abu Ghraib. Jabar was in Abu Ghraib for car theft."

Satar Jabar is really strange by how it just pop up. but when I investigated more. it's likely that Satar Jabar is a name given to prisoner in photo due to unidentifiable at the time. (also at the description on Satar Jabar in 'Criticism of the war on terror'. I click at Satar Jabar name and it lead me to 'Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse' article

so what all I get is that. if at least he's not mr.Faleh. we should unidentify him at the description.

---

TL;DR : I change to mr.Faleh as intended like other article but I got changed back. so I write this whole thing just to say that if he isn't mr.Faleh. we should just unidentify him.

Depicting image of victim standing on the box.

Karuwil (talk) 12:55, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi Karuwil The bottom line is that WP:Wikipedia is not a reliable source. While I appreciate your efforts to investigate, only looking at non-Wikipedia reliable sources can we answer the question. (t · c) buidhe 15:40, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Spee

@Buidhe: You say, "It's ridiculous to give this one individual so much WP:WEIGHT and suggest that they had a significant role in why torture declined."

Please excuse:

• In skimming this article without this reference to Spee, the overall tone of this article suggested to me that torture was rarely used during the Inquisition, and when it was, it was mostly relatively benign. That sounds like whitewashing to me.
• The article on Friedrich Spee says that his 1631 book, "Cautio Criminalis helped bring an end to witch-hunting. The moral impact created by the publication was considerable. Already within the 17th century, a number of new editions and translations had appeared. Among the members of Spee's Jesuit order, his treatise found a favorable reception."

I would not suggest that Spee was the only voice against torture during the Inquisition nor necessarily the most effective. However, he seems to have been one such voice, and reasonably influential given the "number of new editions and translations" of his Cautio Criminalis that appeared later in the 17th century.

If you think this gives undue weight, please and similar discussions of the contributions of other leader(s) who helped reduce the use of torture.

Torture is still being used and promoted by leading politicians and bureaucrats today. It is part of current political discourse. This particular quote provides for me the most succinct and powerful argument against the active torture lobby.

Beyond this, the section on Motivation and preparation in the Wikipedia article on 1998 United States embassy bombings begins, "The bombings are widely believed to have been revenge for U.S. involvement in the extradition and alleged torture of four members of Egyptian Islamic Jihad (EIJ) ... ." I think this should also be mentioned in this article, because it provides clear evidence that torture is counterproductive.

Including vivid imagery like this quote in this article makes it easier, I believe, for people of good will to counter the politicians and bureaucrats demanding more "enhanced interrogation" methods.

You surely are not suggestion that the world needs more torture, not less, are you? If not, please supply other vivid imagery to help people understand why torture should be vigorously condemned and opposed. DavidMCEddy (talk) 04:17, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi,

I think you may be mistaking the purpose of Wikipedia. While I am definitely personally opposed to torture, the Wikipedia article's purpose is to inform the reader about the topic, not to persuade them that torture is bad. please supply other vivid imagery to help people understand why torture should be vigorously condemned and opposed is likely incompatible with our encyclopedic mission. Likewise, we should state the scholarly consensus that torture is not particularly effective (for certain goals), and let readers make up their own mind.

However, Spee is only one of a long line of writers arguing against torture for various reasons. There is no evidence that he was so much more influential than other reformers who pushed for the abolition of torture that an entire paragraph is WP:DUE. If someone should be mentioned by name, probably Cesare Beccaria was more influential. Nevertheless, I'd rather such details be covered in another article such as history of torture or abolition of torture.

Since the article was featured, a new book by Ron Hassner about torture and the Inquisition was published, so it may be worthwhile to add like a sentence from that source, but remember this is a world wide article and it is probably Western biased as it is. (t · c) buidhe 04:39, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Congratulations on getting this article featured. [https://xtools.wmcloud.org/articleinfo/en.wikipedia.org/Torture The "Page statistics" says that you have been the most active contributor to this page since 2021-07-20, and User:buidhe documents that you've done similar work with many other articles. Thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.

I agree that "we should state the scholarly consensus that torture is not particularly effective (for certain goals), and let readers make up their own mind." I'm concerned that the way this article is currently worded, it is difficult to find that scientific consensus. Shouldn't a terse summary be in the lede, perhaps right after "Torture has been carried out since ancient times"? Maybe follow that with one or two sentences citing the works you've found most credible on this subject?

What do you think about inserting a new section on "Scientific consensus", perhaps before "Definitions" listing concisely the references you find most credible and very briefly why? Then add a quote from one or two current leading advocates of torture like Donald J. Trump, noting that such claims seem to be contradicted by the weight of the available evidence as well as by anecdotes like a brief mention that the 1998 United States embassy bombings were reportedly in part a response to US complicity in torture and General McChrystal's comments that US torture at abu Ghraib appears to have motivated much of the opposition to US military operations in Iraq.

Also, shouldn't there be references in the lede? I think it would help serious scholars if the most important works on this issue were cited in the lede.

Academic journals typically do not allow citations in the abstract, but this lede is not an abstract.

I also agree that everything should fairly describe the available evidence and not overstate the case. That does not mean one should avoid vivid language. All writing should be clear, concise, correct, and compelling, including in science. DavidMCEddy (talk) 16:04, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Torture is generally regarded as of limited value in eliciting accurate information, but that doesn't mean it's inefficient as a method of punishment, intimidation, or of obtaining a forced confession . As stated by the article, #1 might be the least common use. (t · c) buidhe 18:37, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't think that mentioning Trump or other specific US examples in the article would be WP:DUE; the vast majority of torture in the world does not take place in the United States or by US agents (t · c) buidhe 02:35, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Perpetrators depicted in lead photograph

Regarding File:Vietconginterrogation1967.jpg, the Commons description states that it is a US government work taken by a US soldier. NARA categorizes this image as "Photographs of American Military Activities".[1] Unless there is evidence that it is depicts ARVN rather than US forces, I think the caption should remain. (t · c) buidhe 23:42, 5 February 2024 (UTC)