Talk:Scotland in the early Middle Ages/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Adam Cuerden (talk · contribs) 16:51, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Lead

• "Scotland has an extensive coastline and large areas of difficult terrain and poor agricultural land, with more becoming marginal due to climate change, leading to relatively light settlement, particularly in the interior and Highlands." - I presume the climate change is climate change during the Middle Ages, but this is unclear.

 Done I think, but please check.--SabreBD (talk) 14:41, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

• "North Britain lacked urban centres..." - it seems odd to use the term "North Britain", which is rather archaic - indeed, I believe the only recent usage was a brief attempted resurgence in the Thatcher era. If you mean what is now Scotland and Northern England, briefly glossing the term on its first use would help.

Although it had a specific usage from the 18th century, it is used by early medieval historians as a means of getting around the problem of not being able to use Caledonia or Scotland in this period. Would northern Britain get around those associations?--SabreBD (talk) 14:41, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

• "Initially influenced by the Celtic tradition originating from what is now Ireland, by the end of the era it had become integrated into the structures of Rome." - This is confusing. I presume you mean that it had become integrated into the Catholic Church's organizational structure.

 Done--SabreBD (talk) 14:41, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

History

• "By the time of Bede and Adomnán" - it might be helpful to briefly identify them - Bede is pretty well known, but Adomnán much less so. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 16:51, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

 Done I added a general period, what they wrote is briefly summarised in the section above.--SabreBD (talk) 14:41, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

• " from which they brought with them the name Scots." - it would be worthwhile to be clear at this point that "Scots" was originally a term used to describe the Irish, which changed definition over time.

 Done--SabreBD (talk) 15:51, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

• "North Britain" crops up again; see above.

Dál Riata

• "Some scholars have seen a revival of Dál Riata under Áed Find" - can we phrase this differently than "have seen"? It's a somewhat awkward phrasing.

 Done--SabreBD (talk) 15:51, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Alt Clut

• The opening paragraph should identify the region Alt Clut was the capital of. I have provisionally edited it to say "the Strathclyde region". I've also put the explanation of the name in parentheses, in an attempt to make things a little clearer. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 17:06, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

OK--SabreBD (talk) 15:51, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

• "The kingdom suffered a number of attacks [...]. All of which were rebuffed, losing the region of Kyle in south-west modern Scotland to Northumbria, and the last of which may have forced the king Dumnagual III to submit to his neighbours." - This is contradictory - it claims they rebuffed attacks, then says they lost territory because... they won?

 Done--SabreBD (talk) 15:51, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Bernecia

• "It is possible that in 638 Edinburgh fell to the English," - it might be worth being clearer on what the evidence for and against is, and setting the point by which it definitely fell. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 17:29, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

 Done--SabreBD (talk) 15:51, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Vikings and the Kingdom of Alba

• Is it necessary to use "AD" when the whole article has been AD dates? Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 17:32, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

 Done--SabreBD (talk) 15:51, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

This gets us to "Geography", from where I will continue shortly. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 17:39, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Source for later history of Al Clud

A useful source on the later history of Al Clud is T. M. Charles-Edwards' Wales and the Britons 350-1064. This is the first volume of the Oxford History of Wales, published in 2013, but he covers Britons in other areas. On pp. 480-481 he states that in 870 the Vikings destroyed the fortress of Dumbarton, and two years later Arthal, king of Strathclyde, was killed at the instigation of the Picts. He states that this was the first use of the name Strathclyde, reflecting the fact that the kingdom could no longer be called Al Clud, because this meant Dumbarton which they no longer controlled, and the successor kingdom of Strathclyde had a major centre at Govan. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:02, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Will catch up

Sorry, I hit a period where I'm really busy; will finish this ASAP. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 18:01, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, thats great.--SabreBD (talk) 19:02, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Settlement

I'm afraid this secton's comments are a little nit-picky. I'd feel bad, but I presume this is going to FAC, so...

• "peripatetic monarchies and aristocracies" - I know what "peripatetic" means, but, unless that's a standard way of describing that specific kind of monarchy, it might be better to use a better-known term like... is "nomadic" precise enough? In any case, since the term's basically defined immediately thereafter, I wouldn't worry about this one too much.

I think I would rather stick to peripatetic than nomad, as I can see someone at FA asking if they had tents. Is "itinerant" any better? That is also used in the literature.--SabreBD (talk) 17:09, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

• "In the areas of Scandinavian settlement in the Islands and along the coast..." should "Islands" be capitalised? I could see arguments for both sides.

Tricky one. Looking at all the uses I decided to remove the cap except on "Highlands and Islands". It is at least consistent now.--SabreBD (talk) 17:09, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

• The map of Pit-place names isn't explained sufficiently. It says "once thought to indicate" - If I remember rightly, it's one of those things where it's partial evidence, but imitation muddies the water a bit? If the theory's completely discredited, I'm going to have to question what the image contributes; if you meant to say that there's confounding factors, you'd be better off saying that and naming them than discrediting your own image.

Its a complex issue. Most name place experts still accept this. I removed the conditional clause from the caption and put some explanation in the text, but I don't think I can really explain the whole issue, as it is so complex.--SabreBD (talk) 16:49, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

• "...the heaviest areas of Pictish settlement were in modern Fife, Perthshire, Angus, Aberdeen and around the Moray Firth," etc, etc. I'd suggest either a map, or combining this with the descriptions of the kingdoms up a few sections.

The map is the Pit name map - hopefully this is a bit clearer now.--SabreBD (talk) 16:49, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

• "Bernicia" - this is dropped in the middle of a list of modern place names. Perhaps you meant something like "There was also extensive Bernician settlement..." which would be a bit clearer.

 Done I think this is the one you mean. This was Viking settlement.--SabreBD (talk) 17:09, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Kingship

• The first half of the first paragraph is a little disorganised. Some more linking phrases would help smooth out the line of thought.

 Done I think. Unfortunately there are no obvious articles to use as links. I have tried to expand this a little to help with understanding of the concepts, which are a bit alien to those familiar only with later monarchy.--SabreBD (talk) 17:09, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

• "putting their foot in a footprint in stone" - This would be clearer - presuming this revision is accurate - if this was phrased "putting their foot in a footprint carved in stone"

 Done Yes, that is what it needs, although I don't know if it was carved by humans or hydraulic action.--SabreBD (talk) 17:09, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

• "However, it was Iona, the early centre of Scottish Christianity, which became the burial site of the kings of Scotland" - this sentence doesn't quite follow on from the rest of the paragraph. Also, it might be best to specify "early kings of Scotland"; I believe that the later mediaeval kings started to gravitate to Dunfermline?

 Done--SabreBD (talk) 17:09, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

And I'll save here; sorry this is taking so long; I'm in two operas. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 08:22, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Right. Will finish tomorrow. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 22:35, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Reluctantly I have self-failed the review and will renominate. Hopefully any new reviewer will take a look through all the work done here. Thanks for all your efforts.--SabreBD (talk) 20:38, 11 November 2013 (UTC)