Talk:A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

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Former good article nomineeA. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada was a Philosophy and religion good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 22, 2008Good article nomineeNot listed

Semi-protected edit request on 26 July 2023[edit]

The place where Abhay Charanarvinda Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada met his spiritual master is Ultadanga, Kolkata. Not Allahabad. Fake information.

And Views on slavery and casteism and racism are picked without knowing the context of the talks or lecture. It is just picked from the words not conversation. Thank you 009Priyanshusharma (talk) 05:41, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • I have changed the place where they met from Allahabad to Kolkata. Thanks for pointing out that error.
  • On the matter of his remarks about race and caste, you have not said what changes think should be made, so it isn't possible to make them. However, I do think there's a good case for rewriting the relevant sections, for two reasons:
  1. A mere list of quotes is not, in my opinion, an entirely good way to indicate his views, and it might be better to have a prose text outlining his views and giving them some context.
  2. Checking published sources I have found much more of the same; the snippets quoted considerably understate the extent of his negative remarks about people of what he regards as inferior races. It would therefore be a good idea to write a more extensive account of the things which he has said on the relevant subjects, to give a more accurate impression of the extent to which he has expressed negative views on such people. JBW (talk) 20:33, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 23 December 2023[edit]

The "Views" section of this section includes extremely cherry-picked statements from the individual the article is about. A more comprehensive article is required to paint an accurate picture of the individual this article is about. Edit the following in square brackets after considering the followings quotes.

["Hitler and Jews Swami mentioned Hitler to provide an example of a notorious villain, comparing him to Vedic demons, and using the term "hero" to describe one who has many gifts but squanders them for evil purposes:

Sometimes he becomes a great hero -- just like Hiranyakashipu and Kamsa or, in the modern age, Napoleon or Hitler. The activities of such men are certainly very great, but as soon as their bodies are finished, everything else is finished.[12]

He held Jews to be responsible for Holocaust:

Therefore Hitler killed these Jews. They were financing against Germany. Otherwise he had no enmity with the Jews... And they were supplying. They want interest money -- "Never mind against our country." Therefore Hitler decided, "Kill all the Jews."]

Quotes: [So asura, to kill the asuras, however powerful they may be... We have seen. There were so many asuras in this world. There were Lenin, there were Stalin, there were Hitler, there were Hiraṇyakaśipu. So many. But they could not survive. It is not possible. They'll be finished. So asuras, to kill him... Paritrāṇāya sādhūn..., vināśāya...(BG 4.8) To kill the duṣkṛtām, these asuras, Kṛṣṇa does not require to come. He comes only to give protection and pleasure to the devotees. That is his aim." (Lecture on SB 1.8.20 -- Mayapura, September 30, 1974)

To the atheists who are guided by the animal qualities of passion and ignorance, physically powerful men like... Ravana, Meghnad, Jarasandha, Hitler, Mussolini, etc. are considered as Mahajans. (Srila Prabhupada)

(Hitler is compared to likes of ‘Demons’ of mythological and current times. Ravan, Mussolini.

The whole history of the world, you just study, is a history of sense gratification. Just take, for example, some twenty years ago one Mr. Adolf Hitler came in the scene, and there was great upheaval as war in Europe and America. From 1933 to 1947 or something like that, the whole world was in trouble. But he is gone, finished. And what did he do? Sense gratification, that's all. (Bhagavad-gita Lecture 3.6-10. Los Angeles. 68-12-23)

No, the greater power is Krsna. If you take shelter of Krsna, they cannot do anything. Just like Prahlada Maharaja, he was a five years old boy. He took shelter of Krsna and his father was a great demon, very powerful. He wanted to chastise his boy. He could not. This is the proof. So you take shelter. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja, aham tvam sarva-pape... [Bg. 18.66]. "I give you protection." So people have no faith although He's God. He thinks God is less powerful than Hitler. That is his nonsense. If he takes actually shelter of Krsna, what this rascal, Hitler, can do? But he has no faith in God. He thinks Prabhu Hitler is greater than Lord. Prabhu Hitler. That is the difference between the crows and the swans. The crows think that we have got food in the garbage. And the swans think that we have got food in nice garden, in the clear water. And that is difference even in the birds kingdom." (Room Conversation with Dr. Christian Hauser, Psychiatrist. Stockholm. 73-09-10)

Just like in your Western countries there was Napoleon, there was Hitler, there was Mussolini, here also, big, big leaders, but what they are? Big, big servants of the senses, that's all. Big, big servants of the senses. Therefore Bhāgavata has said, sva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). Puruṣaḥ paśuḥ: "These big, big leaders are big, big animals, that's all." Saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. So there are many instructive verses in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Therefore Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam should be your life and soul to remain constantly in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, yes, the unique gift of Śrī Vyāsadeva. (Lecture SB 07.09.40 MAYAPUR - March 18, 1976)

An example can help us to understand the inconceivable potency of the Supreme Lord. In the recent history of warfare the Supreme Personality of Godhead created a Hitler and, before that, a Napoleon Bonaparte, and they each killed many living entities in war. But in the end Bonaparte and Hitler were also killed. People are still very much interested in writing and reading books about Hitler and Bonaparte and how they killed so many people in war. Year after year many books are published for public reading regarding Hitler's killing thousands of Jews in confinement. But no one is researching who killed Hitler and who created such a gigantic killer of human beings. The devotees of the Lord are not much interested in the study of the flickering history of the world. They are interested only in Him who is the original creator, maintainer and annihilator. That is the purpose of the Krsna consciousness movement. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.11.9 Purport)

..defect of the modern politicians. Here at the present moment, their philosophy is that one must be very cunning diplomat, then he's successful politician. This is their philosophy. The most crooked man, like Cāṇakya. But our philosophy is that the political head should be like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, Lord Rāmacandra. That is difference. Here Churchill or Hitler or similar man, crooked man... Without being crooked one cannot become politician. Lloyd George, the British Prime Minister, he said that "Consistency in politics is the qualification of an ass." Consistency. You must change. ()

Now we have got our great personalities, leaders. They are praised, eulogized, our, these political leaders. "Our Hitler," "Our Gandhi," "Our Churchill," "Our Nixon." But sastra says these leaders, those who are not spiritual leaders, those who cannot give our life, they are worshiped by these classes of animals, animals. These so-called leaders, politicians, they are eulogized very much by whom? By these class of men: dogs, camels, asses and.. (Srila Prabhupada)

Disciple: Nietzsche believed that everyone has a “will to power,” but that the weak seek power vainly. For instance, in his will to power, Hitler sought to subjugate as much of the world as possible, but he was ultimately unsuccessful, and he brought disaster upon himself and Germany. Instead of trying to conquer himself, he attempted to conquer others, and this is the will to power misdirected or misinterpreted. Srila Prabhupada: Men like Hitler are not able to control the force of anger. A king or national leader has to use anger properly. Narottama Dasa Thakura says that we should control our powers and apply them in the proper cases. We may become angry, but our anger must be controlled. (Beyond Illusion and Doubt. 12. Nietzsche)

Prabhupada: Well, foolish men cannot accept any logic. Their logic is stick. "If you don't accept, I shall kick on your face. Accept it." That is the... That is wanted. Karandhara: Like the example when Hitler killed the Jews. They will say, "Well, what should we do, just let Hitler go on killing the Jews because the Jews were sinful? Or should we try and stop Hitler?" Prabhupada: Well, Hitler was imperfect and everything was imperfect. That you cannot compare Hitler's action with God's action. God is all-perfect. That is first proposition. God is all-perfect. (Morning Walk. Los Angeles 73-12-16)

Just like in the history of the world there were so many big, big men - Hitler, Napoleon, this Churchill, Gandhi, Nehru. But all their powers, position, in one minute it becomes vanquished. There is no question... They are so proud, they do not believe in God, but when the death comes, they cannot argue anything. The death orders, "Immediately vacate"—finished. You have to vacate. At that time their power, opulence, position—nothing can help. So Kṛṣṇa says, therefore... The atheist class of men who do not believe in God, decry the authority of God, for them... Of course, everyone dies, but for them, mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34): Kṛṣṇa comes as death and takes away everything in their possession. But foolish persons, they do not see, still. God says, Kṛṣṇa says, that "This death I am." Still they'll not. And it is a fact. When Kṛṣṇa comes as death, as Hiraṇyakaśipu... He was atheist, did not believe in God, but when God, Nṛsiṁha-deva came, then he was vanquished, everything, within a second. Nirastaḥ. Sa tu te nirastaḥ. (Lecture SB 07.09.23 Mayapur- March 01, 1976)

Prabhupada: Is that rational, that another living entity like me should be killed for my benefit, for satisfying my tongue? Syämasundara: Their idea is that the animal is not in the same category as myself because it has no... Prabhupäda: So that's alright; then might is right? Hitler is right? When Hitler, Hitler kills the Jews, he's right? He thinks that they are not in my category. Syämasundara: The animal cannot understand philosophy. Prabhupäda: What does he understand of philosophy? He is mad; he is less than an animal. He does not understand philosophy. He does not know that the animal has also a soul, the animal has also life. Then he should be killed first. (Dialectical Spirtualism - Hegel)

This nationalism, this nationalism also the same mistake, but they are fighting so much. Great, great, big, big men. In this country, Napoleon fought. In Germany, Hitler fought. And so many others, in our country Gandhi fought. But he is in ignorance. All these big big leaders, they are ignorance, andha, blind. Blind. They do not know that he is not this body and neither this land belongs to him. But they fight. The whole history of the world means this mistaken idea. "I" and "mine." Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, yat taj jñānam. Kṣetra-kṣetrajñayor yat taj-jñānaṁ mataṁ mama. Kṛṣṇa is giving, that one should know what he is and one should know what is his body, then he is in knowledge. The matter cannot understand this. The dogs, cats, cannot understand this. But a human being can understand this. Bhagavad-gītā is meant for the human being, not for the cats and dogs. Therefore, the human society should take care of this knowledge. Then his life will be successful.(Lecture on BG 13.3 -- Paris, August 11, 1973)] All.glories (talk) 09:29, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Read WP:WALLOFTEXT. Then, try again: write here what you want to change in the article, but short and structured and with reliable sources. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:49, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 21:16, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Expanded and updated[edit]

The article is expanded and updated with new WP:RSs, images, and media. Tried to preserve, develop and build upon all the previous contributions and sources. Looking forward to feedback, corrections, and contributions. Regards, Cinosaur (talk) 15:45, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cinosaur: You left me a message to review this page. I'm not really involved. More than a year ago I completed the list of his works in what is now titled "12. Bibliography", although it looks like someone reformatted it and added the "Posthumously published" section. The numbered sections seem odd.
The "Controversial statements" section appears to give a lot of coverage to what looks like a WP:QUOTEFARM of one-off "minor" (unpublished by him) statements. If it is to be kept, then maybe move it under the "Challenges and controversies" section.
Not sure if the "Principal writings" and "Critical assessments of Prabhupada’s writings" sections should be merged? That's all I have at first glance without reading everything and checking references. Jroberson108 (talk) 16:56, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Cinosaur There're issues with MOS:PEACOCK. I'll try to find some time to review. — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 17:32, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the edit. Per WP:PEACOCK, peacockish are words "used without attribution to promote the subject of an article, while neither imparting nor plainly summarizing verifiable information". Contrary to that, in the passage in question the words are 1) directly quoted and clearly attributed to 2) notable people (Prime Ministers of India) 3) from reliable sources. They are not used to promote the subject, put to include relevant information on his perception and recognition. Regards, Cinosaur (talk) 18:32, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fancruft cannot be tolerated at any cost especially for a highly controversial figure like this subject. Ratnahastin (talk) 18:13, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Please present WP:RSs for the claim that the subject is "highly controversial" before reverting. There are plenty of sources to the contrary cited. Thanks. Cinosaur (talk) 18:26, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Ratnahastin, you have reverted a version of the article backed up by reliable sources by arbitrarily labeling it "fancruft". Please present your evidence for your claim or else revert your edit. Thanks. Regards, Cinosaur (talk) 18:40, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) @Ratnahastin: Can you give an example of this fancruft? I don't see it, though it's possible I've missed some, given the size of the additions to the article. If you have an issue with specific passages, please list them here, rather than simply reverting wholesale. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 18:43, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Cinosaur, please stop edit warring. From the start, it's clear as day it is not improvement. Your revision puts the Indic text after the infobox (incorrect), puts a quote before the lead (not appropriate) and the first bit of the lead reads: A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (IAST: Abhaya Caraṇāravinda Bhakti-vedānta Svāmī Prabhupāda (1896–1977) was the twentieth-century spiritual, philosophical, and religious teacher from India who spread the Hare Krishna mantra and the teachings of “Krishna consciousness” to the world. Born as Abhay Charan De and later legally named Abhay Charanaravinda Bhaktivedanta Swami, he is often referred to simply as “Bhaktivedanta Swami”, "Srila Prabhupada", or simply “Prabhupada”. That's not an encyclopedic tone and a proper way to start an article. Please work on the article in your sandbox and not here. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 18:54, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Soetermans, thank you for your suggested improvements of the lead. Could you please introduce them in the actual text of the lead rather than asking for it to be worked on in sandbox? The Indic text template placement was copied from the previous version, the quote is inserted automatically by the Hindu leader template used, and the lead otherwise strictly follows Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section by proportionately representing the article's content in a succinct form. So, unless I am missing something, the rationale given above does not warrant the revert. Regards, Cinosaur (talk) 19:09, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is clear here that your revision isn't wanted. So no, I am not going to do your work for you. Use your sandbox. You already broke the 3RR rule. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 19:26, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Additions here are governed by Wikipedia guidelines rather than by individual editors' preferences. I have addressed your concerns above about the lead. Do you have any other? Regard, Cinosaur (talk) 19:49, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I believe Cinosaur means well. If you check their sandbox, they have been working on that major revision since December. I realize it can be frustrating if you spend a long time writing an update for an article and it gets removed. A lot of the content this user added was reliable, the mistake they made was their re-writing of the lead which came across as too promotional. I would support adding the content back in without your edits on the lead. If you had not interfered with the lead your edits may have been accepted. I have gone over a lot of the references you added, I can't find any faults with the sources. Psychologist Guy (talk) 00:10, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes there are people who spent thousands of $$ for getting article on their non-notable subject. But how are we supposed to pay for their agony? I don't see anything productive in any of the edits of Cinosaur. Nobody can tolerate sentences like "but his teachings and the Society he established continue to be influential", "Scholars have commented, however, on the contrast between such controversial statements and the full picture of what Prabhupada actually taught and did", "and arousing interest in them worldwide, Prabhupada made a lasting contribution", and much more. They read like advocacy and puffery, but Wikipedia is not for promoting agenda. Ratnahastin (talk) 02:59, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ratnahastin, what is or isn't notable content fortunately doesn't depend on individual opinions here. And you don't and can't know _everybody_. If _you_ can't tolerate something, then change it or improve it using rules. What happened to cooperation, the basic idea of Wikipedia? Cinosaur, you made a huge improvement, though smaller steps would be preferable. 94.142.239.127 (talk) 13:22, 25 March 2024 (UTC)J[reply]
Consider not doing it all in one huge edit. Do one section, wait a few days to give people a chance to react, repeat. And save the WP:LEAD for last, when the rest is done. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:44, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Btw, if this pic [1] is from 1974, and this pic [2] is from 2017, one has to say the guy ages well. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:53, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for all your comments. My apologies for overreacting to reverts of the updated revision. As Psychologist Guy has rightly noted above, I did act in good faith while replacing the current article with its expanded iteration. It was through such single edits that I previously updated two closely related articles on Bhaktisiddhanta (+44318 bytes) and Bhaktivinoda (+64138 bytes), both expansions accepted at that time by the community as improvements. So I did expect (somewhat naively) that the proposed revision would also be dealt with in terms of WP:PRESERVE rather than given short shrift. Still, I should've known better than to engage in edit warring, and I do apologize for the lapse of judgment and decorum on my part. The 48-hour block (my first to date) served me well. Regards, Cinosaur (talk) 20:53, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]