File talk:Soviet flag on the Reichstag roof Khaldei.jpg

Is this the fake one?[edit]

Is this the fake one? There are two versions of this picture, one photoshopped and the original: http://blogs.photopreneur.com/the-worlds-most-famous-photoshop-fakes

The pictures weren't photoshoped, because there was no Photoshop in 1945. However, both these pictures were modified by Khaldei. The sky was clear when Khaldei took his pictures, and the photograph taken by Grebnev at the same moment but from somewhat different point demonstrates that clearly. Khaldei added smoke later. --Paul Siebert (talk) 16:35, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The guy with the flag was wearing two watches in the original pic. Looting is common practice for soviet soldiers. --78.99.178.34 (talk) 00:23, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree 100% that this image was altered, but I'm not sure if I would go so far as say it's fake. I would call it artist license or propaganda. I look at it like the most famous flag rising at the Battle of Okinawa. It has been described was staged because the photo guy missed the shot and the flag was too small. However, that is an opinion. Either way this image is famous. Famous for what it shows OR famous for being a fake.

So the question is, what do you want to do? Delete it? Use the other image? Until we know what you want we change it so we can’t take off the {{contradict-other|:File:Reichstag flag original.jpg}} tag.--ARTEST4ECHO ^talk 14:53, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would say, nothing. The image depicts the unique historic event, I would say, the taking of this picture was per se a historic event that is discussed in the books devoted to the battle of Berlin and the WWII in general (see, e.g., Bellamy's "Absolute war"). The fact that Khaldei altered the picture means nothing, because he himself was not just an observer, but an actor in this event.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:36, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

PS. BTW, I even am not sure if the wristwatches were really removed form this picture. As you can see, the contrast and brightness of these two images are quite different. If you adjust the contrast and brightness on the File:Reichstag flag original.jpg, you will see that the these two images differ just in one or two pixels (right soldier's arm). The wristwatches from his left arm were not removed for sure. With regards to the right hand, the difference in two pixel is not sufficient to draw any conclusion. In my opinion (leaving the issue of alteration of the image beyond the scope), the resolution, quality and contrast of this picture simply make impossible to decide if this image contradicts to the File:Reichstag flag original.jpg or not.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:59, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes this is the one adjusted for propaganda per poses. See this higher resolution picture of the doctored one" (note the missing watch on the right wrist). See File:Red army soldiers raising the soviet flag on the roof of the reichstag with two Watchs.jpg and this link from the article w:Raising a flag over the Reichstag and a reliable source: Sontheimer, Michael (2008-07-05). "The Art of Soviet Propaganda: Iconic Red Army Reichstag Photo Faked". Der Spiegel.

I saw a documentary were Khaldei described how he used a razor to scrape away the offending watch, but I unfortunately I can not remember the name of the documentary.

Here are two more sources:

Tatʹi︠a︡na Tolstai︠a︡ (2003). Pushkin's Children: Writings on Russia and Russians. Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. p. 205. ISBN 9780618125005.
Michael Jones (2011). Total War: From Stalingrad to Berlin (illustrated ed.). Hachette UK. p. 182. ISBN 9781848542464.

That these and other reliable sources note the doctoring of the photographs (and the suppression of the soldiers name) for propaganda purposes makes the doctoring notable, so we need both a before and after photo.

-- PBS (talk) 08:47, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]